LA and racial HDs

[Evil DM]

Hi folks,

I know this is an old discussion and I have flipped through Savage Species and the FAQ.

So if I want to build a minotaur 1st level fighter, he has a ECL of 1 (level) + 2 (LA) + 6 (raciad HDs) = 9

Agreed.

But I'l like to know if I am forced to take the racials HDs (with their consequences).

So I take no racials HDs, gain no skill points according to them, no base saves, no feats, no BAB...

So I'd take only the ability adjustments, darkvision, large, weapon prof., natural AC....

would this supposed to be then an ECL of 1 (level) + 2 (LA) = 3 ?!?!?

Is this case written somewhere officially?

Cheers, Evil DM

 

[Pyrex]

Yes, you have to take the Racial HD, they're part of the balance.

It's spelled out under Monsters as Races

Starting Level of a Monster PC
Monsters suitable for play have a level adjustment given in their statistics. Add a monster’s level adjustment to its Hit Dice and class levels to get the creature’s effective character level, or ECL. Effectively, monsters with a level adjustment become multiclass character when they take class levels. A creature’s “monster class” is always a favored class, and the creature never takes XP penalties for having it.


Level Adjustment and Effective Character Level
To determine the effective character level (ECL) of a monster character, add its level adjustment to its racial Hit Dice and character class levels.

 

[Evil DM]

That is my point.

There ist just written how to calculate the ECL.

The racial HDs are part of it - quasi the monster levels.

So if I do not take them / count them my ECL drops accordingly.

Cheers, Evil DM.

P.S.: And please now not an answer like there is also nowhere written that you have to breathe...

 

[darthkilmor]

You can't elect to simply "Not take" the LA, nor can you elect to "Not take" the racial HD.
Its not something you can elect to take or not take. You could also ask "Can I make a halfing but not take the size small", it doesnt make sense. Chewbacca lives on Endor but is from Kyasssk(sp?), this does not make sense!

 

[Evil DM]

Mh,

but if I compare the qualities of the minotaur without racial HDs (and the consequences) with the half dragon template the LA of +2 seems reasonable to me.

The half dragon gets more abilities, more special abilities and thus LA +3.

The minotaur seems a little bit weaker and just have LA +2.

Cheers, Evil DM.

 

[Nifft]

If your DM lets you get away with it, you can do anything.

What you propose is in keeping with neither the spirit nor the letter of the rules.

Cheers, -- N

 

[chriton227]

I had a player in my game recently ask almost the exact same question, except it was Lizardfolk instead of Minotaur.

Comparing Minotaur and Half-Dragon may look close, but I think that is more coincidence than design. If you allowed the player to not take the racial HD, then Bugbears become a +1 LA race that gives +4 Str, +2 Dex, +2 Con, -2 Cha, +3 natural armor, +4 to Move Silently, darkvision, scent, and a bonus language. Compare that to Hobgoblins (also +1 LA, no racial HD) with +2 Dex, +2 Con, +4 to Move Silently, darkvision, and a bonus language. So that would be an additional +4 to stats (effectively +6 if your character doesn't care about Cha), +3 natural armor, and Scent for free.

I view the racial HD as the HD the creature gains while "growing up", representing the creatures age and maturity. Class levels don't represent the same "growing up" effect, they are more "experiences and learning", as shown with Dragons (dragons gaining class levels don't increase in size/age categories). So a Minotaur with no racial hit dice would be a child at best, and would likely be much smaller and weaker than a fully grown Minotaur with full racial HD. In Savage Species, many of the races start off with a small part of thier racial abilities and gradually gain the rest as they gain their "monster class" levels (including their racial HD). Many of the larger monsters start off as small or medium and increase in size as they advance too. I might allow a player to play an adolescent minotaur with fewer racial HD, but it definitely wouldn't have all of the minotaur racial abilities. I'd probably play it just like the Savage Species class with them taking regular class levels before completing their Minotaur advancement (I'm not sure if that is normally allowed in Savage Species or not, been I while since I looked at it).

 

[Delta]

Minotaurs have 6HD. If your character doesn't have 6HD, then he's not a minotaur.

 

[Pyrex]

The racial HDs are part of it - quasi the monster levels.

So if I do not take them / count them my ECL drops accordingly.

You can't just not take them.

Minotaurs have 6hd. It's part of what makes them Minotaurs.

If a Minotaur could just not take his Racial HD and take class levels instead, why doesn't the one in the Monster Manual have 6 Barbarian levels instead of 6 Monstrous Humanoid HD?

Answer:
1) That's not the way it works,
because
2) The game isn't balanced that way.

For that matter; if you allow a player to play a Minotaur without taking the Racial HD, how do you expect them not to ask to not take the LA either?

 

[underfoot]

I was under the impression from Savage Species that you didn't have to gain all of the Monster Levels before you could take class levels.

For Example, The Minotaur was broken down into a 8 monster levels (I don't have the book in front of me but I believe the number of levels equals the ECL of the monster). You could progress to 3rd level Minotaur and then elect to take a level of fighter. The trade off being you are not a fully developed Minotaur until you take all of the monster levels.

The monster levels represent all the racial HD, size, attributes, skill bonuses, and any (Su) or (Ex) abilities and spreads those out over the total ECL of the monster. So you would not always gain a HD increase with each monster level. It normally leads to a somewhat weakened character at low levels (because HDs tend to get spaced out quite a bit), but makes playing a "young" minotaur viable below 8th level campaigns.