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Lack of Interest in MOTW?
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reapersaurus
Explorer
My impression is that people have come to realize that WotC is almost completely devoid of any true creativity when it comes to their classbooks anymore.
When people (RangerWickett, etc) can come up with 10 times more creative stuff almost on a whim than most of the stuff in a $20 book that took over a year to come out... I see a problem.
It is the sheer underwhelming feeling that I believe MANY people have gotten from Song and Silence, etc, that it contributing the general malaise (non-interest) in the MotW supplement.
When people (RangerWickett, etc) can come up with 10 times more creative stuff almost on a whim than most of the stuff in a $20 book that took over a year to come out... I see a problem.
It is the sheer underwhelming feeling that I believe MANY people have gotten from Song and Silence, etc, that it contributing the general malaise (non-interest) in the MotW supplement.
Moon_Goddess
Have I really been on this site for over 20 years!
Removed to prevent flames
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WizarDru
Adventurer
reapersaurus said:
You make the broad assumption that everyone LIKED RangerWickett's version over the released material. Speaking for myself and several others, I can assure it ain't necessarily so. His material is OK. It doesn't necessarily send me, but it's OK. 10-times more creative? Can't agree with you there.
I agree that S&S was lackluster (and this carries over to a lack of excitement for MotW)...probably BECAUSE of playtesting, not the lack of it. There have been few or no claims of unbalance coming out of S&S...because after having been burned badly at least twice, WOTC probably decided to scale it back considerably (except for the Virtuoso, anyhow).
Of course, you should also consider one other thing: MotW features two of the three most unpopular classes in D&D. I like the Druid and Barbarian, but the vast majority of players choose them less than any other classes. Far more people were anxiously awating 'Defenders of the Faith' or 'Tome and Blood' than 'Masters of the Wild', simply because there are more players of these types of characters.
Kaptain_Kantrip
First Post
Reapersaurus was saying that people on the boards *such as* Ranger Wickett (not just Ranger Wickett) are coming up with far more creative stuff than the designers at Wizards on a daily basis. And this material is FREE. Wizards seems incapable of releasing classbooks that contain a majority of useful information. Most of the prestige classes and organizations are so lame, hard to qualify for, or too niche-oriented to be useful to a majority of gamers. Many of the feats in S&F and DoF are useless, broken or of little interest. Some of the new domains, weapons and magic items were/are broken and overpowered. I have bought all the classbooks so far and am least interested in MoTW, to tell the truth, because no one in my group likes or will play barbarians, druids or rangers, at least as written in the core rules. They are all weak, poorly and/ornarrowly conceived classes (as is the sorcerer, but that's another can of worms...)
IMO, the classbooks so far rate thusly (YMMV):
S&F: Almost completely useless. A few new feats, skill uses, weapons and magic items, plus a couple of niche PrCs (lasher, master of chains, devoted defender). Worth maybe $5 at most.
DoF: All PrCs completely useless to me (too narrowly focused). Feats useless. Prestige domains a bad idea, should have just been made regular domains. Great new spells. A few neat magicitems, though some are ridiculously broken. $5-$10 worth of information for $20... Grrrr.
T&B: The best classbook, IMO. Interesting PrCs, feats, spells, magic items. Still overpriced at $20, but the only book I don't feel too badly cheated on. Book of Eldritch Might from Monte Cook ($5 download or $12.95 softcover) is a much better value, however.
S&S: Lackluster. Poison making info great, trap making info great, guild organization info useful but not detailed enough, feats quirky but most will never be taken, new spells and magic items okay. PrCs all useless (again!). Way too much bard crap. How many pages do we need to devote to the various kinds of medieval musical instruments? The bayonet affixed to the end of the lute was beyond lame. $5-10 worth of value to me, YMMV.
MoTW: ???? Oozemaster is the only PrC that sounds like fun!
Anyway, the WoTC classbooks (IMO) are in general unimaginative and exploitative attempts to rake in money without providing full value for the dollars spent, with T&B being the sole exception thus far. Compared to the third party and fan material (on ENB and elsewhere, which I admit does vary wildly in quality), the WoTC books are probably not the best value for your gaming dollar. I have enjoyed the sourcebooks from AEG, GR, FFG and Mongoose much more than the WoTC ones (not saying they are perfect by any stretch, but they are usually very creative).
Some people will (rightfully) argue that most of us do not judge third party or fan material as harshly as we judge WoTC. That is true! The reason is WoTC is supposed to be the expert on the matter; they have the most money, best distribution, supposedly the "best" designers, and they created the game system in the first place. Their products should be much better than anyone else's. That they are not, and in some cases, clearly inferior, to third party and/or fan material is shocking and should serve as a wake-up call to WoTC to get their act together and put out the caliber of material we all know they are capable of, yet refuse to do. Perhaps the oft-mentioned corporate bureaucracy at WoTC is the main problem. If it is, they need to restructure the way they go about creating their games and supplements or be left in the "creative dust" of the competition.
IMO, the classbooks so far rate thusly (YMMV):
S&F: Almost completely useless. A few new feats, skill uses, weapons and magic items, plus a couple of niche PrCs (lasher, master of chains, devoted defender). Worth maybe $5 at most.
DoF: All PrCs completely useless to me (too narrowly focused). Feats useless. Prestige domains a bad idea, should have just been made regular domains. Great new spells. A few neat magicitems, though some are ridiculously broken. $5-$10 worth of information for $20... Grrrr.
T&B: The best classbook, IMO. Interesting PrCs, feats, spells, magic items. Still overpriced at $20, but the only book I don't feel too badly cheated on. Book of Eldritch Might from Monte Cook ($5 download or $12.95 softcover) is a much better value, however.
S&S: Lackluster. Poison making info great, trap making info great, guild organization info useful but not detailed enough, feats quirky but most will never be taken, new spells and magic items okay. PrCs all useless (again!). Way too much bard crap. How many pages do we need to devote to the various kinds of medieval musical instruments? The bayonet affixed to the end of the lute was beyond lame. $5-10 worth of value to me, YMMV.
MoTW: ???? Oozemaster is the only PrC that sounds like fun!
Anyway, the WoTC classbooks (IMO) are in general unimaginative and exploitative attempts to rake in money without providing full value for the dollars spent, with T&B being the sole exception thus far. Compared to the third party and fan material (on ENB and elsewhere, which I admit does vary wildly in quality), the WoTC books are probably not the best value for your gaming dollar. I have enjoyed the sourcebooks from AEG, GR, FFG and Mongoose much more than the WoTC ones (not saying they are perfect by any stretch, but they are usually very creative).
Some people will (rightfully) argue that most of us do not judge third party or fan material as harshly as we judge WoTC. That is true! The reason is WoTC is supposed to be the expert on the matter; they have the most money, best distribution, supposedly the "best" designers, and they created the game system in the first place. Their products should be much better than anyone else's. That they are not, and in some cases, clearly inferior, to third party and/or fan material is shocking and should serve as a wake-up call to WoTC to get their act together and put out the caliber of material we all know they are capable of, yet refuse to do. Perhaps the oft-mentioned corporate bureaucracy at WoTC is the main problem. If it is, they need to restructure the way they go about creating their games and supplements or be left in the "creative dust" of the competition.
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Crothian
First Post
All the class books have their uses. But none of them is anywhere near 100%.
I like many of the prestige classes, but most of them are NPC only. Few PCs want to limit themselves to such a bland idea. THe feats have been hit and miss. I could list all the sections like that.
But, the books do the jobs they said they would. No company has yet made a RPG book I like 100%. And I never expect on to. RPG value varies so much from person to person.
And the way we'll find out how good wizards class books are are to compare them to other companies when they come out with them (and they will).
I like many of the prestige classes, but most of them are NPC only. Few PCs want to limit themselves to such a bland idea. THe feats have been hit and miss. I could list all the sections like that.
But, the books do the jobs they said they would. No company has yet made a RPG book I like 100%. And I never expect on to. RPG value varies so much from person to person.
And the way we'll find out how good wizards class books are are to compare them to other companies when they come out with them (and they will).
Creativity is not the end-all, be-all of gaming materials.
In fact, if you are not trying to push a particular game world, creativity can be a hindrance. If you're trying to present things that will fit into many possible worlds, then being really new and different can mean the thing is not likely to fit in with current elements.
People tend to insult the class books, and deride them for any number of reasons. But you know what? I betcha they have spurred on more creativity than anything else in the game. A great many new feats and prestige classes have already been created, presented, and passed around because people saw the classbooks, didn't want to take what was there, and so went on to make something else. The spurt of Paladin prestige classes presented on teh boards after the release of Defenders of the Faith are perhaps a good example of the phenomenon.
And, to be honest, I betcha that's actually the original intent. Perhaps the designers aren't so much interested in you using the book verbatim. They say as much. I don't have Song and Silence handy, but the other two definitely had a line that amounted to, "Use what you like, change or discard the rest."
There you have it. If you look at the classbooks not as a source of game materials, but instead as a source of inspiration, a thing to help you think about what you do want, and perhaps you'll find them more useful.
In fact, if you are not trying to push a particular game world, creativity can be a hindrance. If you're trying to present things that will fit into many possible worlds, then being really new and different can mean the thing is not likely to fit in with current elements.
People tend to insult the class books, and deride them for any number of reasons. But you know what? I betcha they have spurred on more creativity than anything else in the game. A great many new feats and prestige classes have already been created, presented, and passed around because people saw the classbooks, didn't want to take what was there, and so went on to make something else. The spurt of Paladin prestige classes presented on teh boards after the release of Defenders of the Faith are perhaps a good example of the phenomenon.
And, to be honest, I betcha that's actually the original intent. Perhaps the designers aren't so much interested in you using the book verbatim. They say as much. I don't have Song and Silence handy, but the other two definitely had a line that amounted to, "Use what you like, change or discard the rest."
There you have it. If you look at the classbooks not as a source of game materials, but instead as a source of inspiration, a thing to help you think about what you do want, and perhaps you'll find them more useful.
Kaptain_Kantrip
First Post
Crothian said:
I agree that all the WoTC classbooks have at least a few cool things in them, but I don't agree that they fulfill the job they set out to do in a meaningful manner for most gamers.
S&F: 10% useful
DoF: 25% useful.
T&B: 75% useful.
S&S: 25% useful.
MoTW: ????
All of them (IMO) should have been as good as T&B, or at least 50% useful as a bare minimum. I understand that not all material appeals to all gamers, but a book should be at least 50% useful to be even worth considering a purchase of it. Stupidly, I bought all the books while rushed or blindly believing (praying, hoping) that they would be better than they were. That's my fault. But it's Wizard's fault for making such poorly executed sourcebooks in the first place, LOL.
Kaptain_Kantrip
First Post
Umbran said:
It was my understanding that they were supposed to be a source of new game materials. I understand that they say use or change what you want and dump the rest. I do that anyway. But I'm not shelling out $20 for "inspiration," I'm shelling it out to get instant, ready to use game material that hopefully I won't have to fuss with or tweak. If I want inspiration, I come here to ENB or look through/memorize (but don't buy) something at the store, then run home and write it down/tweak it to my heart's content. In other words, it's FREE. I should get more bang for my buck from the $20 WoTC classbooks (T&B excluded).
Creativity is, at least to me, the be all, end all of game materials. Without creativity, what have you got? Bland, boring or useless material... If WoTC had put the pertinent info from each book into one classbook for all classes, it would have been a much better value. I would even have paid the core rulebook price (new or old) for such a volume. Instead, we get the long drawn out process of one marginal book after another, each $20. A great way to make money but a bad way to satisfy your customers.
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mzsylver
Explorer
i have always preferred thieves/rogues... followed by the wizard/sorcerer or bard of some sort. so im not too terribly excited over MotW but it does have some neat stuff in it.
my ratings on previous builder books:
S&F: pretty cool, i like the new prestige classes & WEAPONS
DotF: eh, whatever. these are my least favorite classes. prestige domains are too powerful (come on! a cleric with the right domains is already the most powerful character as it is!)
T&B: rocking. nice prestige classes/feats... i want all the spells! especially the energy orbs & necromancy spells.
S&S: i liked it even though they totally skipped over bards. my one regret is they didnt have more classes that gave you sneak attack still. go thief-acrobat & spymaster! and this book has my favorite feat... Pyro =)
my ratings on previous builder books:
S&F: pretty cool, i like the new prestige classes & WEAPONS
DotF: eh, whatever. these are my least favorite classes. prestige domains are too powerful (come on! a cleric with the right domains is already the most powerful character as it is!)
T&B: rocking. nice prestige classes/feats... i want all the spells! especially the energy orbs & necromancy spells.
S&S: i liked it even though they totally skipped over bards. my one regret is they didnt have more classes that gave you sneak attack still. go thief-acrobat & spymaster! and this book has my favorite feat... Pyro =)
