Laffs: Mike Stackpole on 3E, ca 1999

[King of Old School]

I think it's worth pointing a few things out:

1) The companies and games he "championed" aren't really dead. FASA closed its doors for business-related reasons but look carefully, pretty much everyone who worked on the major FASA products (Shadowrun and Battletech) is working for the hugely successful WizKids or for their stalking-horse Fantasy Productions (FanPro) and those two lines are still being published (in both classic and revised form, in BT's case). Likewise, people shouldn't get too caught up in the "end of the World of Darkness" marketing push -- Vampire was and is a valuable, successful property and all that is happening is a new edition is hitting the streets later this year. Even Deadlands (a property largely deep-sixed by business dealings that had little to do with the product) is seeing a new edition this year.

2) D20 and the OGL didn't prove that "system sells," they proved what most people with good sense already knew -- that D&D sells, it's the most popular RPG in the world by far, and that you can make more money selling supplements for the world's most popular RPG than you can selling stuff for less-popular RPGs. What the OGL did was open the market for D&D supplements up to competing companies, for better or worse. It's a bit disingenuous to categorize D&D as a wholly generic, settingless system like GURPS -- there's a strongly implied setting in stock D&D products, the "generic medieval fantasy" typified by Greyhawk and LOTR. If "system sells" were the proven truth of D20, then why don't similarly generic non-D&D D20 games like Spycraft and D20 Modern blow away non-D20 games like Vampire? Plenty of people like settings, that's why FR stuff sells so well and why Conan (which is effectively a D&D supplement itself) is already gearing up for a second printing.

3) The "Skaff Effect" wasn't about the sales of corebooks vs supplements, it's a statement that all marketing activity in a given game genre benefits the market leader in that genre. In other words (to quote Ryan D.), "the more money other companies spend on their games, the more D&D sales are eventually made." (He's specifically talking about other companies' non-D20 games, not supplements BTW.) It's a secondary effect of the network theory. Personally I think it's a bit of an overstatement.

All (well, mostly) IMO, of course.

KoOS

 

[Beretta]

... plus many excellent original fantasy novels (esp the last four listed)

The Dark Glory War
Fortress Draconis
When Dragons Rage
The Grand Crusade

Just as an aside: I wasn't too thrilled with the DragonCrown War series at all - in fact, I think they were the poorest novels he's published that I have read to date (and I've been a fan of his work since the Warrior series was published). For me, I think his earlier works were much better, such as the majority of his BT novels and these fantasy ones that you listed:

Talion: Revenant
A Hero Born
Eyes of Silver

I'm probably in the minority in this opinion...

 

[Numion]

2) D20 and the OGL didn't prove that "system sells," they proved what most people with good sense already knew -- that D&D sells, it's the most popular RPG in the world by far, and that you can make more money selling supplements for the world's most popular RPG than you can selling stuff for less-popular RPGs.

I think that this statement really sells 3e short. It's easy to just say that it sold because it was D&D, when the truth was that before that D&D didn't sell, and thats why TSR got in to trouble.

3e sells mostly because it was a damn good product founded on solid marketing data. Yes, although many detest it, there actually was a point to figuring how long an average campaign lasts and what kind of D&D most people play. And WotC has a better grasp on marketing than your average RPG company. (Intrestingly enough those things were enough to cause backlash in more even here. "They've got some nerve admitting that D&D is actually a business instead of my own beloved hobby!")

d20 and open gaming lisences effect on D&D are IMO overstated on a somewhat more enlightened forum, like ENWorld. I bet that a good part of D&D players worldwide don't even know what those are. I know my players really don't - they don't go to any D&D boards for that matter. I've still seen people report the opengamingfoundation.org site to WotC boards, because obviously they're pirating their product We at ENWorld aren't really representative of the whole gaming population.

 

[barsoomcore]

d20 and open gaming lisences effect on D&D are IMO overstated on a somewhat more enlightened forum, like ENWorld. I bet that a good part of D&D players worldwide don't even know what those are. I know my players really don't - they don't go to any D&D boards for that matter.

Well, but your players don't need to know to enjoy the benefit of the system, right? They don't need to know that so many of the supplements they have available to them are being created because of the easy licensing process that the OGL made possible. They just walk into the game store and see more D&D books than ever before and go, "Cool."

Even if they don't buy any supplements, they are benefitting because the industry is healthy -- because it's been made so easy for people to get in on the biggest money-making wagon in the market. So prices are more competitive, product is more available and there's just more choice and better quality than ever before.

And while most of that is anecdotal, I'd be willing to put money on that fact. I think it's pretty clear that the hobby is in one of the strongest, healthiest phases it's ever been in -- if not THE most so.

Now is the OGL solely responsible for that? Of course not. Hard work by the 3E designers, smart marketing and business dealing by WotC and I suspect a bit of good old fashioned luck have all contributed.

But it would be a very, very different market right now without the OGL. And I think it's difficult to come up with plausible scenarios in which the industry would be BETTER OFF without it. Although ones as entertaining as "Adkison and Dancey murder Noah" are worth presenting.

 

[Numion]

Well, but your players don't need to know to enjoy the benefit of the system, right? They don't need to know that so many of the supplements they have available to them are being created because of the easy licensing process that the OGL made possible. They just walk into the game store and see more D&D books than ever before and go, "Cool."

I meant that they don't make the connection d20 <--> D&D compatible. As funny as it may seem, because I even own a few non-WotC pdfs, but they've really not used those themselves. And I've not seen the point of .. um .. pressing the point

Just saying that a larger portion than the ENWorld members generally think might be totally oblivious to the whole d20 thing.

Even if they don't buy any supplements, they are benefitting because the industry is healthy -- because it's been made so easy for people to get in on the biggest money-making wagon in the market. So prices are more competitive, product is more available and there's just more choice and better quality than ever before.

Of course, it's quite sure that d20 had a positive impact on the industry (even created a large portion of the industry almost overnight). But if 3e (and d20) had sucked mechanics-wise, d20 lisence might've not done anything good. At least I would've never jumped on the D&D wagon!

 

[Janx]

I think Mike had some valid points, and obviously missed on others.

TSR had a reputation for pooching this kind of thing. As history shows, they didn't this time.

His point about worlds selling is true, to a point. WotC and others sell worlds. They make money. The drain is when you prolong it. WotC's licensing system for Wheel of Time, Diablo, Warcraft, etc. is based on doing a big book, and maybe a small book. Then they're done. Except for FR, they're no longer trying to run continuing series in a campaign world. Eberron will likely be little exception, if they're smart.

In the same vein, WotC needed to do d&d3e. 2e was ten years old. Even 2.5e was 5 years old. Sales were dropping, because everyone who had it, had it. A new edition revitalized the game, making it seem fresh (akin to buying a new copy of the PH, to replace the worn out one). WotC's current challenge is figuring out how often the refresh rate should be (ala was 3.5e too soon). It also hurt things that the price went up from $20 to $30, but that wasn't 3.5e's fault. Most people hadn't noticed, that the original 3e release was a promotion for $20, and about a year later, the price raised to $30 on the 3e books. 3e was D&D reinventing itself, which is exactly what Mike advised (though Mike was talking worlds, and WotC was talking systems).

Janx

 

[Hypersmurf]

Just as an aside: I wasn't too thrilled with the DragonCrown War series at all - in fact, I think they were the poorest novels he's published that I have read to date (and I've been a fan of his work since the Warrior series was published). For me, I think his earlier works were much better, such as the majority of his BT novels and these fantasy ones that you listed:

Talion: Revenant
A Hero Born
Eyes of Silver

I'm probably in the minority in this opinion...

I haven't read any of his Battletech stuff, but with novels like Eyes of Silver, A Hero Born, and Once a Hero, he went on my Fantasy Buy-on-Sight list.

I really enjoyed A Dark Glory War, too, but the three DragonCrown novels disappointed me. They just didn't grab me at all, the way his other fantasy stuff did.

-Hyp.

 

[Pramas]

.
3) The "Skaff Effect" wasn't about the sales of corebooks vs supplements, it's a statement that all marketing activity in a given game genre benefits the market leader in that genre. In other words (to quote Ryan D.), "the more money other companies spend on their games, the more D&D sales are eventually made." (He's specifically talking about other companies' non-D20 games, not supplements BTW.) It's a secondary effect of the network theory. Personally I think it's a bit of an overstatement.

I agree. As good as d20 has been for me and Green Ronin, I don't think it has helped D&D sales. Quite the opposite, in fact.

 

[Ottergame]

I think Mike had some valid points, and obviously missed on others.

TSR had a reputation for pooching this kind of thing. As history shows, they didn't this time.

His point about worlds selling is true, to a point. WotC and others sell worlds. They make money. The drain is when you prolong it. WotC's licensing system for Wheel of Time, Diablo, Warcraft, etc. is based on doing a big book, and maybe a small book. Then they're done. Except for FR, they're no longer trying to run continuing series in a campaign world. Eberron will likely be little exception, if they're smart.

In the same vein, WotC needed to do d&d3e. 2e was ten years old. Even 2.5e was 5 years old. Sales were dropping, because everyone who had it, had it. A new edition revitalized the game, making it seem fresh (akin to buying a new copy of the PH, to replace the worn out one). WotC's current challenge is figuring out how often the refresh rate should be (ala was 3.5e too soon). It also hurt things that the price went up from $20 to $30, but that wasn't 3.5e's fault. Most people hadn't noticed, that the original 3e release was a promotion for $20, and about a year later, the price raised to $30 on the 3e books. 3e was D&D reinventing itself, which is exactly what Mike advised (though Mike was talking worlds, and WotC was talking systems).

Janx

People also forget te 2ed ed PHB was going for $25 when the book was revised in 1995, and pushed up to $30 by the end of the 90's. WOTC's books are pretty cheep for hardbound full color books.

 

[Vocenoctum]

Even more ironic than this article's championing of now-dead companies, at least for me, is the reasons they are championed: FASA's refusal to let the Battletech universe sit still for 10 minutes was what eventually caused me to stop playing the game.

For me, it was Stackpole's writing and his control of the central plot. The whole "put upon good guy/ evil unstopable bad girl" thing drove me away from teh series, and only Loren Coleman's writing kept me through until FASA closed up doors.

Shadowrun is a shell of it's former self though, and I think it was the loss of it's "world" and concentration on the system that really drove the soul from it.