Large creatures and Forced Movement

[Banesfinger]

Are there any rules that restrict Forced Movement (slide, push, pull) against large creatures?

It seems silly that a small halfling can slide a Huge dragon with 1st-level at-will powers...

 

[Zaran]

Are there any rules that restrict Forced Movement (slide, push, pull) against large creatures?

It seems silly that a small halfling can slide a Huge dragon with 1st-level at-will powers...

The idea is the halfling tricks the dragon to move. He's not physically pushing the dragon over there. He's more like jumping to the spot he wants the dragon to go and calling the dragon's mom a wyvern and then tumbling back to their orginal spot.

 

[Nahat Anoj]

Are there any rules that restrict Forced Movement (slide, push, pull) against large creatures?

It seems silly that a small halfling can slide a Huge dragon with 1st-level at-will powers...

Some forced movement powers specify size limits. For example, the push rider on Tide of Iron can only be used on creatures your size, smaller than you, or one size category larger. So a halfling fighter can't push an ogre with this exploit.

However, another way to think about forced movement powers isn't so much that the PC is moving them through sheer power, it's that they're being annoying enough to position the monster where they want. This is how I imagine a power like Positioning Strike to work.

In any case, some 1st level at-will forced movement powers are magical, like Thunderwave. In these cases, I don't think there should be a problem with small creatures forcing larger creatures to move.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Personally, it bugs me too1

that aside, think of it not as a "1st level at-will" pushing the dragon, but as a "15th level character" pushing the dragon.

Since the PC has to hit the target defence in order to make the push happen (I'm guessing), a huge dragon is probably a higher level target and has much higher defences than, say, a kobold. The 1st level character is very unlikely to hit that defence and so can't push the dragon. The 20th level character is very likely to hit the defence and thus move the dragon via leverage, pressure points, chutzpah or whatever.

The level of the power typically determines the scope of the effect. The level of the PC determines how tough a target you can affect with it.

1. In particular, it bugs me that dwarfs get pushed one space less but nothing else does. The next time I run a campaign there is going to be a house rule in there that states every size category above Medium causes a creature to be pushed, pulled or slid 1 square less by any forced movement that results from an attack against AC, Fort or Ref.

Forced movement that results from attacks against Will are fine, as they are causing the target to 'choose' to move.

 

[CovertOps]

The idea is the halfling tricks the dragon to move. He's not physically pushing the dragon over there. He's more like jumping to the spot he wants the dragon to go and calling the dragon's mom a wyvern and then tumbling back to their orginal spot.

Personally, it bugs me too1

that aside, think of it not as a "1st level at-will" pushing the dragon, but as a "15th level character" pushing the dragon.

Since the PC has to hit the target defence in order to make the push happen (I'm guessing), a huge dragon is probably a higher level target and has much higher defences than, say, a kobold. The 1st level character is very unlikely to hit that defence and so can't push the dragon. The 20th level character is very likely to hit the defence and thus move the dragon via leverage, pressure points, chutzpah or whatever.

The level of the power typically determines the scope of the effect. The level of the PC determines how tough a target you can affect with it.

1. In particular, it bugs me that dwarfs get pushed one space less but nothing else does. The next time I run a campaign there is going to be a house rule in there that states every size category above Medium causes a creature to be pushed, pulled or slid 1 square less by any forced movement that results from an attack against AC, Fort or Ref.

Forced movement that results from attacks against Will are fine, as they are causing the target to 'choose' to move.

@PS: I think of it more like Zaran does. For a push specifically you can think of the attacker doing something that causes the target to "jump" back.

 

[DarkLord Of DForce]

This came up in one of our sessions. Our DM argued that we couldn't knock down something that was 20 feet high.

I argued that it wasn't about the ->strength<- of my Avenger (wisdom based) vs the strength of this 20 foot tall creature, but the *magic* effect of the power and my hammer that I was using.

We also argued that it wasn't necessarily the visual effect of my 5'8" Avenger swinging, lifting this house sized beast off the ground, and slamming him onto his back 10 feet away, but rather, a magically powered "ker-thump!" that brings the target down to one knee, and all the effects of the knock down power then apply.

If this wasn't true, it seems to me that anytime you tried to knock something down it would involve a check of your strength vs your targets. Don't wanna go down that road.

Our DM finally relented but rather reluctantly.

All of this would apply, it seems to me, to push, pull, slide and shift as well. For example, its not the feebled looking old man using his strength to shove an assailant away from him with his hand, but a Jedi Master using Force-Shove! and the power of the Force to move him away...

 

[Plane Sailing]

@PS: I think of it more like Zaran does. For a push specifically you can think of the attacker doing something that causes the target to "jump" back.

Conceptually that works for me on the attacks vs Will, but not so much on the attacks vs Fort and Ref. Then again, I'm not a big fan of the 4e trope that says 'make up whatever you need to in order for this rule to apply', which is one of my big hang-ups with the rules.

Anyway, I think my main point still stands. It isn't the level of the power which is significant in 4e terms for moving the huge monster, it is the level of the PC.

Cheers

 

[fuzzlewump]

Pushes and pulls are proportionally smaller for larger creatures. Pushing the huge dragon one square is like a tiny step back for the dragon but pushing the human one square is a pretty big deal, 100% displacement, even though both are 5 feet.

So, its not perfect by any means, but it's a slice of justification I use.