D&D 4E Late to the 4E party

Bob_in_DC

First Post
Hi, everyone. My friends have encouraged me to start a 4E campaign, and I was hoping for advice on getting started.

A little background: I’ve been playing with the same group of people for ~20 years. We’ve played 2E, 3E, 3.5E, and now Pathfinder together, either in person or online. When 4E was released, I was initially drawn to it because I really liked the at-will/encounter/daily power mechanic, was intrigued by the formalization of character roles, and loved the attempt to equalize the character classes so that different classes could contribute at all levels. Unfortunately, for many reasons, my group wasn’t really interested in trying 4E back when 4E was relatively new, and I reluctantly turned my attention to other systems.

I just moved to a city where two of the members of my gaming group live. They remembered my interest in 4E and have encouraged me to start an adventure. I’m happy to do so, but I have never DM’ed before and stopped paying attention to 4E products years ago. I’ve been trying to re-familiarize myself with the available products, but am having a hard time figuring out the best way to jump back in. I have the PHB, DMG, MM, PHB2, Arcane Power, Martial Power, Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide, and Adventurer’s Vault. I think both my friends have access to the PHB, and that’s about it.

I’ve seen comments that the initial releases were unbalanced or otherwise flawed, and that there’s errata floating around. I’ve also seen references to “Essential” books and “LFR” books, which from context seem like they might be revisions, simplifications, or updates to the core books, but it’s hard to tell for sure. So, I have some concerns:


  1. Any suggestions on how to get started? I was hoping to stick with the books we already have, but if they need updating, correcting, or simplification I’m willing to consider additional purchases. Please keep in mind that I have no experience as a DM, so I’m hoping to minimize the amount of conversion or adjusting I’ll need to do.
  2. Also, can anyone suggest specific adventures to start with? I’ve seen lists of published adventures but don’t really know which ones are the most suitable for us. Based on past experience we will probably want to have a coherent story through many levels, but any adventures people feel are "must have" experiences would be welcomed.

Thanks a lot.

Bob in DC
 

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PHB1 and MM1 benefit from the updates/errata; in the case of MM1, I would almost say it's mandatory.

Avoid any adventures with Mike Mearls and/or Bruce Cordell listed in the credits. They simply did not grok 4E and their names appear on the worst of the crud that WotC produced (and it is crud).

A rather good Heroic Tier adventure path is The Slaying Stone, Reavers of Harkenwold, and Madness of Gardmore Abbey and you can throw in Cairn of the Winter King and Orcs of Stonefang Pass for some variety.

LFR is Living Forgotten Realms. That was the FR-based organised play programme. The link will take you too 200+ adventures ranging from really poor quality (I mean, really, really, really poor) to some of the most epic adventurers ever published for D&D. And, yes, they are all free and legal to download.

Essentials was a half-assed attempt by WotC to reset 4E to make it a bit simpler but it really was half-assed. Some good products came out of it - the two Monster Vaults, in particular, are superb - but it was just some corporate wankery to disguise the fact that WotC had lost interest in 4E and 5E was on its way. Nevertheless, if you can, get the first of the Monster Vaults and pretend your MM1 simply does not exist. Oh, and Reavers of Harkenwold came with the DM's Kit. That is probably the best adventure produced for 4E and one of the best of any edition (and so it Madness at Gardmore Abbey).

PS: Welcome to ENWorld! :)
 
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I have the PHB, DMG, MM, PHB2, Arcane Power, Martial Power, Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide, and Adventurer’s Vault.
Those are good sources to run a campaign from, on the player side. You have a good range of classes, powers and feats.

There are a lot of items in AV. Some are good. Some are a bit crappy. But you'll get by. If you find AV2 or Mordenkainen's Magnificent Emporium somewhere cheap, they both tend to have better items.

You are a bit light-on for monsters, though the MM monsters will work OK at low levels. Once you get to around 7th/8th level you'll find that there damage is a bit low - MM is built on an expected damage output of 7.5 +half monster level on a hit, whereas later on this was upgraded to 8 + level. Upper heroic tier is where you start to notice the difference, and feel the need for the higher damage to put pressure on the players and their PCs.

The single best monster book, as others have said, is Monster Vault.

There is quite a lot of errata for the PHB, and some for the other books you list. A lot of it is non-essential, especially at lower levels and if your players aren't pushing the system very hard. But it does, overall, improve play. I've had a look on the WotC website, but since their recent reorganisation I can't find it. If you email me at my username dot yahoo dot com, I can send you the errata PDF.

The main book that you don't have that I would recommend if you can find it is the Rules Compendium. This came out with the Essentials line. It is basically a restatement of the core rules from the PHB and DMG (but no classes, races, items etc - just the action resolution rules and encounter building guidelines), tightened up and with the relevant errata incorporated.

If you can't find the RC, the biggest piece of errata that (for some bizarre reason) is not incorporated in the official errata document is the change to the DC-by-level table. The one in the DMG is no good - the DCs tend to be too hard. The one in the Errata PDF is no good either - the DCs tend to be too low.

Here is the proper chart (the layout isn't beautiful, but the numbers, in order, are Level, Easy DC, Moderate DC, Hard DC):
Code:
1 8 12 19		16 16 22 31 
2 9 13 20		17 16 23 31 
3 9 13 21		18 17 23 32 
4 10 14 21		19 17 24 33 
5 10 15 22		20 18 25 34 
6 11 15 23		21 19 26 35 
7 11 16 23		22 20 27 36 
8 12 16 24		23 20 27 37 
9 12 17 25		24 21 28 37 
10 13 18 26		25 21 29 38 
11 13 19 27		26 22 29 39 
12 14 20 28		27 22 30 39 
13 14 20 29		28 23 30 40 
14 15 21 29		29 23 31 41 
15 15 22 30		30 24 32 42

I’ve seen comments that the initial releases were unbalanced or otherwise flawed, and that there’s errata floating around.
See my comments above. I played with the original MM from 1st to 6th level with no problems at all. It's at levels above that that the wonky damage maths starts to show itself.

I’ve also seen references to “Essential” books
Essentials is 5 books: the RC and MV, mentioned above; the DM Kit, which is basically a reprint of the DMG with a few bits from the DMG2 thrown in, and basically forgettable except for the adventure it contains; and two player books (Heroes of the Forgotten Kingdoms/Fallen Lands). The players books contain new classes and feats; all fine options, but you're equally fine without them.

I have no experience as a DM, so I’m hoping to minimize the amount of conversion or adjusting I’ll need to do.
The single best thing you can do as a 4e GM is, when your players declare some wacky action for their PCs, go along with it and use the rules to help you. In 4e the rules really are your friend.

For instance, in one of my early games the paladin wanted to say a prayer to help against a wight he was fighting. I had him make a Medium Religion check as a minor action - on a success he gets combat advantage for the round, on a failure he takes 1d10 psychic damage as the evil nature of the wight blocks his attempt to make contact with his deity.

Use the DC charts, and the damage-by-level charts, the keywords of powers, the skill descriptions, and the action economy of the game, to handle this sort of stuff, and you almost can't go wrong. It's a very forgiving system in that sense.

(Here's a link to a write-up of a session I ran (the PCs were around 9th level or so) that gives more examples of how to handle this sort of improvisation.)
 

I just moved to a city where two of the members of my gaming group live. They remembered my interest in 4E and have encouraged me to start an adventure. I’m happy to do so, but I have never DM’ed before and stopped paying attention to 4E products years ago.

Cool with such a success story; good luck with 4E.
 

DMing with 4E can be pretty easy to do. You have that neat list of DCs up above if you need to improvise some skill check, plus the math for generating combat encounters is really tight; you have an XP budget based on how many PCs there are, how strong they are, and how challenging you want the encounter to be and just buy creatures from there.

I'd strongly recommend picking up the Monster Vault, and maybe the Player's Handbook 3 if your players want to play as Psionic-orientated classes and the Monk.

There are three Internet resources that could prove helpful to you:
habitualindolence.net/masterplan/ Master Plan lets you make monster stat blocks (and help plan your campaign) for when you feel comfortable making new monsters, which is easy to do with a bit of DMing experience under your belt.
blogofholding.com/?p=512 Likewise, all the math needed to make a monster from scratch can fit on one side of a business card. It may not make sense now, but halfway through my first 4E campaign it was an invaluable resource.
archive.wizards.com/dnd/tools.aspx I've personally never used it, but I've heard a lot of praise for D&D Insider. Its character builder is pretty nice and I believe it has resources from every monster manual.

Finally, as a few bits of advice...
  • Minions are the awesome seasoning to a good encounter. It's almost always a good idea to have a smattering of minions. Towards the end of my campaign, I also wasn't considering all of towards the XP budget since they go down so fast.
  • The item treadmill is unfortunately alive in 4E. The math of the game assumes everyone has level-appropriate items. The DMG has advice on handing out items and money per level; I'd try not to be stingy.
  • Don't be afraid to reskin anything! As an extreme example, in my 'modern' 4E campaign a really awesome bow was actually the ranger's sniper rifle and an adult blue dragon was a mech. Just because the Monster Manual says those are Elves doesn't mean you have to use them as such; make them be sneaky, elite killsquad of kobolds if it fits the encounter!
  • It's okay if you have an unbalanced party. You don't have to have a Striker, a Defender, a Leader, and a Controller. I'd say a Leader is the closest thing to being 'needed' in 4E, and even then not really. My campaign worked fine with all Strikers and one Defender.
 


archive.wizards.com/dnd/tools.aspx I've personally never used it, but I've heard a lot of praise for D&D Insider. Its character builder is pretty nice and I believe it has resources from every monster manual.

I would second this. DDI has everything in it. If you try it for a month & see if its useful. You could also let the players use it to make PCs as the character builder is now very good.
 

  1. Any suggestions on how to get started? I was hoping to stick with the books we already have, but if they need updating, correcting, or simplification I’m willing to consider additional purchases. Please keep in mind that I have no experience as a DM, so I’m hoping to minimize the amount of conversion or adjusting I’ll need to do.
  2. Also, can anyone suggest specific adventures to start with? I’ve seen lists of published adventures but don’t really know which ones are the most suitable for us. Based on past experience we will probably want to have a coherent story through many levels, but any adventures people feel are "must have" experiences would be welcomed.
I'll try not to repeat everything everyone else has said. There IS a lot of errata out there. Some of it is straightforward - fixing stuff that was over-powered, under-powered or simply unclear. But there is also errata that makes significant changes to the system! Here are some of the big ones:

- Target skill check DCs. These were modified not once but twice, I believe! If you get the most recent DM Screen, the one with the wintery battle scene on the front, it has the correct DCs. I'm sure they are also in the errata somewhere.
- Monster math changed. This started with the Dark Sun monster book and Monster Manual 3, I believe. Basically every book before these has significantly under-powered monsters. Many of the monsters in MM1 + 2 received face-lifts in the pages of Dungeon magazine, I believe. Monster design improved significantly in later books too, so those monsters are both easier to run and more interesting to fight.
- PHB1 + 2 races were modified so that they had more flexibility in their stat bumps. Basically all races are supposed to have a primary stat which increases by +2 and then you get to pick from two other stats to get another bump. For instance, the errata'd Dwarf ALWAYS gets a +2 to CON and can pick another +2 from either STR or WIS.
- Magic Missile auto-hits. This iconic spell got a significant overhaul to make it more interesting. There are probably other spells and powers that got similar errata but that's the one that sticks in my memory.

On the player side, you don't need to worry about errata if you use the online character builder which is part of D&D Insider. That stuff is incorporated auto-magically!

I would highly recommend, if you can find it, the Monster Vault box set, which includes an excellent monster book, tokens, and a nice 4th level adventure with full-color maps. The Monster Vault: Threats to Nentir Vale book is also worth tracking down. Not a monster book, but I thought the DMG2 was excellent, BTW. Not a must-have, but very good nonetheless.

Someone upstream mentioned the adventures. I don't know if you're planning on running pre-published modules, but if you do most of the early ones were crap. Some good adventures include Cairn of the Winter King and Madness at Gardmore Abbey. I haven't played Slaying Stone or Reavers of Harkenwold but I hear good reports about those. Some of the third party adventure paths, like War of the Burning Sky and Zeitgeist might be worth taking a look at too. Since you are new to this, running a pre-published module to get the hang of things might not be a bad way to go.
 

I'm glad that you're interested in 4e. To date it still remains as my favorite version of D&D. I found that the promise of the Moldvay D&D Foreword was finally realized in the mechanics provided by 4e.

You have already received a great amount of awesome advice on this thread about resources. So I thought I'd give you a bit of advice on "perspective". Particularly because you have never DM'd before. More than any other version of D&D, 4e is particularly suited to "portray" scenes of high-action adventure. The PCs are not schleps that just fell off the apple cart and decided to go adventuring. They could almost be said to be "marked by destiny". Therefore they are more crafty and resilient than the general populace. The general populace could never hope to achieve heroic status. The PCs are heroes from the get-go, and that is by design. When creating and running adventures for your group, keep that paradigm in mind. The patron that sends you on a rat-catching quest is most probably not an appropriate adventure for heroes. Get creative with your adventures and let the players get creative with their actions.

Therefore, when a player says he wants to jump on the back of the gray render and stab it in the brain the DM attitude should be to say "yes go for it", or to roll the dice using the using the chart for difficulty by level, or a combination of both. In other words don't block the heroic actions by assuming they are not "realistic" or could not happen in the D&D world. The chart is your friend, but a "go for it attitude" is very important/necessary.

Describe the action and be evocative, but don't paint yourself into a corner. D&D has a lot of dry mechanics. A game that devolves into "I roll a 16 vs. AC, does that hit?", as the only form of narration, becomes extremely boring. Avoid boring! Remember this is a high-action adventure narrative, keep it as such. By the same token don't create narration that will cause you heartache, as follows:
DM:"The gray render lurches forward swinging it's claws wildly." 20 vs. AC, does that hit?
PC1: Yes
DM: 16 points of damage
PC1: That knocks me unconscious.
DM: "Its claws rend you from shoulder to belly leaving a deep bloody gash, blood pooling at your feet you fall forward unconscious."

That narration is more evocative and better than simply saying, "20 vs. AC, 16 points of damage, you're unconscious." However the catch-22, and what will cause you heartache is when the next round PC2 comes in and says, "Doriok steps forward and yells out to Robrik - get up laddie this is no time for napping! We have beasties to defeat! - Inspiring Word - spend a healing surge + 8 HP."

Make your narration with the thought in mind that the claw rending description should probably be reserved for the time when the PC actually dies (negative bloodied value), not for the time when he goes unconscious. You could have still used something like "Its claws slam into you, knocking the breath out of you. The room starts spinning as you fall forward unconscious." The point is that the description of the extent of the PC's wounds should remain nebulous until he either dies, or he recovers. He could still have a deep gash from shoulder to belly but don't say so until he's actually dead. And if he recovers there is just a superficial scratch instead of a gash. He got knocked out by the impact (force of the blow) not the blood loss and therefore was back up in the fray on the next part of the "scene".

Additionally, I like to DM from the perspective that the PCs are "Action Heroes" in their own movie. My job as DM is to put situations in front of them that are challenging, and let them "go to town" in solving those situations. My job is not to think too hard about fantasy. The mechanics are there to provide a consistent method of conflict resolution, not to explain disparate narration as shown above.

For example, the PCs are barefoot for some reason explained before through narration. In this encounter the room the PCs enter bursts in an explosion that sends shards of glass, and other debris all over the place. The PCs take some damage and are slowed. Possibly narrated as having some of the shards cut their feet. After that encounter it is very possible that the slowed condition will go away. If you thought too much about fantasy, you would be forced to ask why are the PCs no longer slowed since their feet were cut? The real answer is because you, as DM, have deemed that it is irrelevant except for that particular encounter/challenge, and because conditions such as slowed are fine for one encounter but become a bore for a prolonged setup. In other words, the "Action Heroes" can prevail after that encounter without any additional hindrance. The same way that "John Mclane of Die Hard fame" gets his feet cut by shards of glass in scene Y and it hampers him during that scene, but it does not affect his mobility during the rest of the movie. John Mclane took a "short rest" and removed the shards from his feet and semi bandaged them (spending some healing surges to get back to combat efficient form - full hp. But still having some "injuries" in the form of spent healing surges). When you start looking at the game mechanics from this perspective it all starts to fall in place beautifully.

Heroic action does not require loads of combat. One of the criticisms laid at the feet of 4e published adventures is that they were simply combat fests. I think this might be a misunderstanding, somewhat disingenuous from a certain perspective, and a double edged sword.

The 4e published adventures could "appear" to be combat fests because of the Dungeon Delve format used for presenting each encounter. This 2 page encounter format kind of "forced" a combat resolution rather than anything else. The misunderstanding comes from believing that each encounter MUST be solved by combat and that the encounter, as written, must be used. That presentation did not help for alleviating this misunderstanding. Experienced DMs could easily alter the encounters to make combat less prevalent, but inexperienced DMs would possibly not know any better. Therefore my claim of disingenuous. In addition, some of these combats were put in place with what appears to be little consideration for pacing. The initial roll-out of 4e had monsters that had some "issues". For an experienced D&D player the fact that it could take 20+ hit points to kill a kobold was probably an unwelcome eye-opener. This created the potential for combats that would take too long to complete. Without good instructions/guidelines for DMs to handle pacing this could be a real issue. And this is where the problem becomes a double edged sword. The Delve format made it extremely easy for any DM, regardless of their level of experience, to run a challenging/fun encounter. But at the same time it created the artificial notion that "everything/vast majority" of the material in the adventure module was dedicated to combat. If you contrast the delve format to "older" modules where the DM only had a name to the room, sometimes a base description to it, and a comma separated list of monsters you can see the utility of the Delve format. However taking so much space makes it look like combat is the only worthwhile activity.

Therefore you must mix it up. If you look at the successful and exciting fantasy movies you will see a mix of events (encounters), and narration/exposition. You will need to find the appropriate pacing for your group. At times the narration will be higher, and at times the combat will be higher. The important thing is to keep things moving, don't allow the session to stagnate. I recently played in a Star Wars Edge of the Empire game. The first session was exciting and moved rather quickly. It had some combat, some roleplaying and some exposition. It was well balanced and paced. Our second session was true torture. Imagine a Star Wars movie in which Han Solo and Chewbacca spend 2 hours of your, the audience's, time deciding if they should buy a laser turret, or upgrade the engines of the Millenium Falcon. That particular scene should have taken 5-10 minutes tops, but it took 2.5 hours of real game time. Avoid this type of stagnation like the plague!

One thing I have not covered is skill challenges. I'm sure I could write some more on these things but I've written too much as it is already. Above all - have fun when you DM, be excited and provide fun challenges.
 
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