D&D 5E (2014) Lava and magic items

[pukunui]

Never mind.

 

[James Gasik]

Hi all,

I am running Dungeon of the Mad Mage. Last session, the PCs starting exploring the Obstacle Course on the 15th floor. The dungeon includes a number of teleporting traps, some of which include a chance of being dropped into a lava lake. As a firm believer that falling into lava should be deadly, I always have it deal the maximum damage (10d10 = 100 points of fire damage!).

As the dice would have it, two of the PCs got unlucky and took a dip in the lava. They both survived because they are tough as dwarves with more than 100 hp each (plus one is a forge cleric with fire resistance).

At the time, I ruled that all their mundane equipment was destroyed but their magic items survived unscathed. However, I am just reviewing the rules for magic items, and I note that only artifacts are considered "practically indestructible". A normal magic items is "at least as durable as a regular item of its kind", and "most magic items, other than potions and scrolls, have resistance to all damage."

Looking at the rules for objects, even a resilient large object like a cart only has 27 hp on average. Most of their items are going to be small (10 hp on average) or tiny (5 hp on average). Even with damage resistance, that's not enough to survive a dunk in lava (even without me maxing out the damage).

The forge cleric has a necklace of prayer beads, a horn of the endless maze, +1 plate armor (created through a class feature), a cloak of protection, and a sentinel shield. Oh, and a magical jade staff that can turn into a giant poisonous snake.

The other PC (a berserker barbarian) has a +2 battleaxe, gauntlets of ogre power, a chest of preserving, and a bag of holding.

Should I rule that all the magic items were destroyed? (After all, right at the start of the obstacle course, Halaster did tell everyone to put their magic items in the available mine carts for safe-keeping ... so it's not like they weren't warned!) Or should I give each magic item a chance to survive? Maybe a higher chance based on rarity? (Or should I just determine hp for each item and then roll the 10d10 damage for each one?)

Thoughts?

Unless a magic item specifically states that it can be destroyed, such as a Necklace of Missiles, or mishandling of the items in a Bag of Holding, I assume enchanted items are far more durable than normal materials.

You have to ask yourself what is gained by taking away the player's magic items. If you feel it would balance the game, you should have a discussion with your players about that, rather than have them removed by what is in effect, DM fiat.

If you think it would make the game more fun, I would again, go to your players with your reasoning as to why.

If you have a Barbarian using Gauntlets of Ogre Power, one of two things would result from their loss. One, nothing major, if they have a Strength of 18. Two, a nerf to their attack and damage with melee weapons by reducing them to a Strength of less than 18. For a class that is primarily a melee damage dealer, this can be annoying/crippling.

I used to play with a DM who would occasionally freak out about how many magic items we had, would contrive of a way to take them away from us, we'd find new ones, and the cycle could continue. It was very annoying because it felt like we were being punished for something that wasn't under our control- if you don't want magic items in your game, just be up front with that when you give your elevator pitch for the game.

The DMG tells us the default expectation for the game is "The World is Magical" on page 9. It's ok to change that, but you need to adjust yours and the players expectations in advance.

If your goal is to make players worry about their items being potentially destroyed, as to make them more cautious, then you shouldn't take them away if there was nothing the players could do to protect them other than stay home and not adventure (and saying "well, they could have made a saving throw" doesn't count! They really have to have had the chance to make an informed decision, and a choice that isn't "let's just go home").

I'll note even destroying all of their non-magical gear, no matter how logical it is (falling into lava) is extremely harsh. What are they supposed to do without armor? Weapons? Tools? Rations? Spell Focuses and material components?

How do you expect them to continue in the campaign from here?

As a further question, you already made the situation far more dangerous than it was written to be by choosing to inflict maximum lava damage. What is served by adding insult to injury?

I mean if it's "realism", then falling into lava should be an automatic death, go make a new character!

 

[mamba]

I’d keep it simple, if the char dies in the lava, the items get destroyed because they were exposed too long. If the char makes it out, so do the items, except for scrolls

 

[Andvari]

You could have fragile magic items, like scrolls and potions, automatically destroyed. And have the character make a save for each of the other items. Particularly durable items meant to absorb hits or strike hard, like the magical plate mail, the cloak of protection and the axe, are likely repairable even if the save is failed. Unless the player rolls a 1 on its save.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

As a general principle, 5e tends to treat items that are on someone's person as indestructible, for the sake of simplicity. I remember back in my 1st edition days, there where item saving throws, and having to save for every single item each time a character was hit by a fireball was a bit of a chore.

 

[Hriston]

If the characters survive the fall, then how are their items destroyed, unless you’re imagining they drop all their items to save themselves?

 

[pukunui]

Unless a magic item specifically states that it can be destroyed, such as a Necklace of Missiles, or mishandling of the items in a Bag of Holding, I assume enchanted items are far more durable than normal materials.

That's not what the rules in the DMG, which I quoted above, state.

You have to ask yourself what is gained by taking away the player's magic items. If you feel it would balance the game, you should have a discussion with your players about that, rather than have them removed by what is in effect, DM fiat.

If you think it would make the game more fun, I would again, go to your players with your reasoning as to why.

Magic items are extras. They're not necessary for play, and I generally discourage my players from building a character around specific items for that reason. People can get too precious about magic items sometimes.

Also, I have brought it up with both players. One has already responded with "That makes perfect sense."

EDIT: Also, the forge cleric is this character.

If you have a Barbarian using Gauntlets of Ogre Power, one of two things would result from their loss. One, nothing major, if they have a Strength of 18. Two, a nerf to their attack and damage with melee weapons by reducing them to a Strength of less than 18. For a class that is primarily a melee damage dealer, this can be annoying/crippling.

Nah, he only just got those, and he probably wasn't the best one to take them anyway. It won't be a great loss for him. Losing the bag of holding will be a bigger loss because I'm using the variant encumbrance rules ... but then again, there are two new PCs, both of whom have bags of holding of their own, so ...

If your goal is to make players worry about their items being potentially destroyed, as to make them more cautious, then you shouldn't take them away if there was nothing the players could do to protect them other than stay home and not adventure (and saying "well, they could have made a saving throw" doesn't count! They really have to have had the chance to make an informed decision, and a choice that isn't "let's just go home").

They're exploring a dungeon run by a crazy old wizard, who did warn them to leave their magic items in the containers provided at the beginning of the obstacle course. Is it my fault that the players chose not to listen to him?

I'll note even destroying all of their non-magical gear, no matter how logical it is (falling into lava) is extremely harsh. What are they supposed to do without armor? Weapons? Tools? Rations? Spell Focuses and material components?

How do you expect them to continue in the campaign from here?

They're 13th level PCs, and only two of them ended up in the lava. Assuming they can make it out of the obstacle course alive, they'll just head back up to Waterdeep and restock their gear. They've also got more money than they know what to do with, so it shouldn't be too hard for them to replace some magic items. Really this is, at most, a speed bump in their quest to reach Halaster at the bottom of Undermountain.

As a further question, you already made the situation far more dangerous than it was written to be by choosing to inflict maximum lava damage.

Why? Where does it say that I can't inflict max damage? 55 is just the average. Would you prefer me to have rolled the damage? It's not like they got some lava splashed on them or just dipped their toes in. They literally fell from 30 feet in the air into the center of a lake of lava. After surviving the initial dunking, they then had to swim another 30-odd feet to reach the edge of the lake.

I’d keep it simple, if the char dies in the lava, the items get destroyed because they were exposed too long. If the char makes it out, so do the items, except for scrolls

You could have fragile magic items, like scrolls and potions, automatically destroyed. And have the character make a save for each of the other items. Particularly durable items meant to absorb hits or strike hard, like the magical plate mail, the cloak of protection and the axe, are likely repairable even if the save is failed. Unless the player rolls a 1 on its save.

Yeah, I have already gotten rid of their potions and scrolls. Here's what I'm thinking for the rest:

Roll a d6 for each item. The item's survival depends on the rarity:

Common = 6
Uncommon = 5-6
Rare = 4-6
Very Rare = 3-6
Legendary = 2-6

As a general principle, 5e tends to treat items that are on someone's person as indestructible, for the sake of simplicity.

Yes, and that's something that has irked me since day 1 of 5e.

If the characters survive the fall, then how are their items destroyed, unless you’re imagining they drop all their items to save themselves?

As I said above, they literally fell into a lake of lava. They would have been fully immersed in the lava and had to swim through it to get out. We're not just talking Anakin lying on the bank of the lava river getting burned by the heat here. Tell me how their items would not have been destroyed.

 

[Dioltach]

I agree with @James Gasik that it's probably only fun to destroy a character's items if it doesn't impact their gameplay too much. You could rule that one or more items have been destroyed, but not the magical effects. The barbarian now permanently has ogre hands. The cleric has a permanent +1 AC, but the skin of his torso has taken on a metallic sheen.

If you really want to go down the route of possible destruction, I'd probably go with one grace round, and a 20% chance survival per bonus/magic effect per round after that.

 

[pukunui]

I agree with @James Gasik that it's probably only fun to destroy a character's items if it doesn't impact their gameplay too much. You could rule that one or more items have been destroyed, but not the magical effects. The barbarian now permanently has ogre hands. The cleric has a permanent +1 AC, but the skin of his torso has taken on a metallic sheen.

Yeah nah. I might do that if it was some kind of wild magic zone or something a deity did. But not just because the PC fell in the lava.

The artificer class is made for people who can’t stand the thought of losing a magic item, and I’ve already got one in the party.

 

[aco175]

Should just give them falling damage and then lava damage. Even if the lava is the watery kind falling 100 ft before hitting it can still hurt, and then you sink into the lava. After that, I tend to let most of the gear survive. I do not take away things when hit with a fireball or make the PCs buy new boots after several levels of adventuring. Max damage should be enough.