Law vs. Good - The paladin's dilemma (Advice needed)

Hjorimir said:
Opinion: Good > Law when the two conflict.

IMC paladins have to adhere to their God's law or way; the laws of mankind are secondary in all ways.

Stuff that, the paladin must adhere to the ways of lawful good. If his god starts doing unlawful or ungood stuff, the god gets told he's doing it wrong.

But then, I view paladins as people who never asked for the power they were given. It's just that gods or cosmic forces or whatever decided to give them power to help do what they were going to do anyway. If the power got taken away, they'd still keep doing things exactly the same.
 

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I hate paladins for this very reason. We have just lost our paladin in our newest campaign. While the party was negotiating a surrender with some goblins, the dwarven fighter (who hates everything, and has a 6 CHR) charged and killed the remaining goblins. The paladin and dwarf had words, now the PC is a CN fighter. Now I think my CG halfling theif/ranger is going to be destroyed because the dwarf is targeting a friendly ogre for his next victim. The ogre has been kind to the party, and the rogue has taken a liking to him. My hat of neutral/choatic neutral alignments know no bounds!!!
 

From your description, it sounds to me like you're handling this just fine. If the paladin agreed to the bargain, as you imply, he's obligated to keep it; or, at the very least, he needs a much better reason to break his word than, "I changed my mind, and I never really liked you anyway." If the paladin did not give his word, the situation changes.

The RAW back you up on this completely. You state, "The paladin has thus reneged on an agreement entered into willingly by all parties, but for what he perceives to be the greater good." This is definitionally chaotic: lawful characters "tell the truth, [and] keep their word," while chaotic ones "follow their consciences, ... [and] do what they promise if they feel like it." (PH 104) A paladin must "act with honor (not lying, not cheating ...)" (PH 44). Entering an agreement that he never meant to honor is lying. Breaking it when the other party has honored it (and, as you say, intended to stick at least to the letter of it) is cheating. Note that you have, even under the RAW, the option of letting him off with a warning: a paladin only loses his powers if he commits an evil act or "grossly" violates his code.

The real issue here, from what little you've said, doesn't look like it's about the RAW at all. We seem to have:
  • One player who wants to be a gnomish Martin Luther King
  • One who loses his powers if he breaks an oath
  • One who attacks people with whom the others have made a deal, apparently in the belief that the party will back him up
You don't make clear whether this is a case of the gnome making a deal on behalf of the other players which they don't agree with, of the dwarf disrupting the other players' plans, or something else entirely. But you make it abundantly clear that the players have incompatible expectations for the game. If I were playing a peacemaker, I'd feel useless if the barbarian wrecked my negotiations by starting fights. If I were playing a fighter, I'd feel useless if the group spent hours negotiating and I never got to fight. I recommend that you try to solve the real problem.

Wolfwood2 said:
I'd really say it was the dwarf who reneged, not the paladin. You say the paladin "decided to help", but what were his alternatives?
Off the top of my head: use his Diplomacy to attempt to defuse the situation. Pull the barbarian out of there, but don't help him kill the kobolds. Urge the barbarian to retreat. Let the barbarian learn the lesson that, when he doesn't go along with the rest of the party, the rest of the party won't automatically go along with him.

Was he supposed to just leave his ally to fight a bunch of evil creatures alone? Was he supposed to just stand around and wave his hands while shouting, "Nothing to do with me! Kill the dwarf! The dwarf!" (Which is realistically what it would take for the kobolds to even consider not attacking him.) That option strikes me as cowardly and wrong.
False dichotomy. Toss the deliberately ridiculous line you put in his mouth, and replace it with something like, "Stop, my hot-headed friend! You break our truce unjustly!" There is nothing cowardly about refusing to fight for a dishonorable cause. And there is nothing whatsoever in his code about going along with his companions, right or wrong.

There's an old saying about two wrongs not making a right. The dwarf breaking the agreement was wrong (well, by the paladin's POV), but once the agreement is broken the paladin has to do the best he can with the situation at hand.
True, up to a point. But it is absurd to suggest that a paladin may break his word of honor with a clean conscience just because one of his allies has. The fact that the paladin remains bound to keep his word even if that becomes more painful than he expected is a reason for him not to give it lightly, not a reason for him to take it lightly.
 
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Reg: Paladins and Law or Good

About a year ago now I played in a Greyhawk campaign with a player running a Paladin who to be blunt would have taken one look at that "deal" and immediately ignored it since he believed in fanatically fighting evil and deals with anyone evil doesn't count...
Ultimately its not just up to the player to decide how to run their character but also how the DM views Paladins in the mentioned case I am assuming the DM reminded the Paladin's player that by breaking his word over their deal he was endangering his Paladinship?
If not then he's justified in saying he should have been warned since if the DM isn't clear in how Paladins are viewed he can literally get away with murder (as the one in the Greyhawk campaign did).
 

The party should never have made that deal, if they knew that the kobolds would violate the agreement (in spirit if not in letter).

Having made the agreement, the paladin should have stuck to his part of it unless and until he has concrete reason to know that the kobolds would break the agreement. Simply "being sure" isn't enough reason to act - you can't punish someone for a crime they haven't committed yet just because "he's that sort".

That said, the paladin gets a lot of rope from the fact that he's actually right. Attacking the kobolds wasn't very honourable, and certainly wasn't Lawful, but it's not enough (by itself) for an alignment change, and doesn't grossly violate the paladin code, so the paladin does not lose his status, and does need to atone (per the rules). Whether his mentor sees it like that is another matter.

Question: what did the party do with their hostage (who is now a helpless prisoner)?

Ds Da Man said:
I hate paladins for this very reason. We have just lost our paladin in our newest campaign. While the party was negotiating a surrender with some goblins, the dwarven fighter (who hates everything, and has a 6 CHR) charged and killed the remaining goblins. The paladin and dwarf had words, now the PC is a CN fighter. Now I think my CG halfling theif/ranger is going to be destroyed because the dwarf is targeting a friendly ogre for his next victim. The ogre has been kind to the party, and the rogue has taken a liking to him. My hat of neutral/choatic neutral alignments know no bounds!!!

You hate paladins because your party's CN dwarf is a psychopath?
 

hopeless said:
If not then he's justified in saying he should have been warned since if the DM isn't clear in how Paladins are viewed he can literally get away with murder (as the one in the Greyhawk campaign did).

If the paladin got away with murder, the DM was incompetent. I don't see how you can argue with a straight face that murder is not an Evil act.
 

I don't see how this is law vs good. Attacking those kobolds after a (at least on his side) honest bargain isn't exactly a good act. Helping his buddy when he does it isn't good either. It's helping his buddy in a chaotic and arguably even evil act (not evil enough for an alignment shift, but I see "Let's kill them just to be sure" as slightly evil still).
 

Reg: Paladins and Good and Evil

In the stipulated case the Paladin was forced to back up the Dwarven barbarian when he violated their agreement because being CN he doesn't have to keep his word (well the player didn't) personally there was nothing to prevent the Paladin honoring his agreement by at the very least subduing the kobolds attacking his comrade and then knocking the dwarven twit out cold (and hog tying him so he can act as the hostage instead of the gnome...).
In the Greyhawk campaign I played in not only did the Paladin get away with murder (he tried to kill a helpless goblin manacled to a wall ignoring the pleas of the other two present forcing one of them to try and help the goblin escape only to have him pursue them using his detect evil to ignore an obscuring mist cast by the druid to help and cut the unarmed goblin from behind. Other than having a pair of goblin prisoners thrown off the cliff after he dangled them over the edge to get them to talk provoked the other goblins to throw rocks down at him from above, funny enough his character couldn't understand goblin and he played it as if he understood everything was said even though I was deliberately trying to keep the prisoners alive since in both cases it was more useful to keep them with us whether to make sure they didn't warn anyone else or we needed to exchange them so we could safely leave the valley where they were living within.
The DM claimed he didn't violate his code even after the above happened claiming the goblins were evil, leaving out the fact he allowed the player to use 1st edition rules to obtain a set of full plate for his character (and then had the nerve to grab a +1 ring of protection claiming nobody wanted it even though I offered it to the Monk as he and my sorceror were the only ones without armour at that point) and after he revealed his character was searching for members of a sect of Nerull on the run from Greyhawk he not only failed to warn the settlement even though he stayed up to fight an expected attack.
He then tried to get everyone to swear an oath to his god after the Mayor's daughter was kidnapped (I roleplayed throwing an apple at him after the rest of us left to go in pursuit leaving him behind, I missed but he did notice we were leaving) he then ignored the fact we had surrounded the villain's cave so when he came out under a darkness spell there would be no way he could escape and then openly goaded the villain forcing me to intercede (halflings and stealth) only to get a kick in the stomach but it did allow another character to leap in and he overwhelmed the villain whilst the druid dropped an entangle just in case!
He then tried to ride off with the villain claiming he had the right to ignore the law as the cleric was wanted by his faith, the druid killed the villain as the mayor, his men and some elves held the Paladin under bowpoint. The player then tried to leave with the corpse on his horse only to later recant and the Dm then stated he was staying and would accompany the rest of us back to Greyhawk after finding a map pointing out the cleric's base in Greyhawk.
The evil cleric by the way had a wand of animate dead which one of the player's running a half orc grabbed, the Paladin pretty much with the DM's help arm wrestled the wand from the barbarian after I pointed out to the barbarian that the wand was worth quite a bit of money which the Paladin jumped on even though his character wasn't even in hearing at the time as the barbarians refused to hand in their great axes and had to stay outside Greyhawk.
Sorry every time i read one of these I feel like replying and then I get REALLY longwinded...
 

The Paladin should have:

1. Called the Dwarf off if possible, and told him to stop.
2. Called the kobolds out as soon as he suspected they were up to something funny.
3. Not given his word if he felt evenly remotely like it would be abused.

And thus he is due:

A good telling off about frivolously giving his word, and choosing his allegiance better (as his friends are obviously of a bad sort, and need more guidance than he is providing).

And that's about it really.
 

Any chance you could leave a blank line between paragraphs? It would make your replies much easier to read :)

hopeless said:
In the stipulated case the Paladin was forced to back up the Dwarven barbarian when he violated their agreement because being CN he doesn't have to keep his word (well the player didn't)

Actually, the paladin chose to back up the dwarf. I understand his reasons, but he certainly wasn't forced. Incidentally, if the barbarian consistently acts like that, a well-played paladin should refuse to adventure with him. (Actually, so should everyone else - he's going to get them killed.)

In the Greyhawk campaign I played in...

Wow! That DM was not only incompetent, but he was massively incompetent:

1) He badly needs to read a book on ethics, if he thinks that behaviour is acceptable in a paladin.
2) He mixes editions where he really should not - what's good for 1e isn't necessarily good for 3.5e.
3) He doesn't know the rules - Detect Evil doesn't negate Obscuring Mist.

Why are you playing with this group? Surely you can find a better group? Or, failing that, don't you have better things to do with your time?
 

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