Lawful != Law-Abiding?

[Jeph]

Does a Lawful character neccacarily abide by the laws? In my opinion, they're just any character with an ordered life and a code that they follow. I don't think that many Paladins would choose to kill 5 innocent civilians upon entering a city, if that was the local law: it goes against their code. What are your views?

 

[Kamard]

My feeling on this is that a lawful good character will willfully obey the word and spirit of any law that he believes to be just.

A paladin would no doubt avoid that city.

 

[d12]

yep

As a DM I try to let player define their own alignments as much as possible. I have on one occasion stepped in a said "Nope. that's not Lawful Good." But one time in seven years of play isn't bad.

Possible lawful beings include - sherriffs and constables, city atch guards, paladins and good law-abiding citizens that never cheat on their taxes. They also include thieves-guild members, cheating and scheming merchants and the like.

so, a lawful character doesn't HAVE to abide by the laws of the land if they consider the source of that law invalid. a Pladin would not be violating his oath by refusing to give 1 gp to the "Kill all the elves fund" even if such a donation were required by law. A LN or LE (or even LG) thief would not be violating their alignment by picking the pocket of a rich noble even if such practice violates the law of the land because they follow the law of the street.

 

[Buttercup]

My feeling on this is that a lawful good character will willfully obey the word and spirit of any law that he believes to be just.

That's the best, most succinct explanation of LG I've ever seen!

 

[Nifft]

IMHO, Lawful = Pro-Organised, while Chaotic = Pro-Individual. A Lawful person can be pro-state or anti-state, which would make them law-abiding or law-breaking, but they see themselves working towards an organization's goals.

Criminal organizations like the Mafia are very Lawful -- it's just not the state's laws that they follow.

-- Nifft

 

[Kichwas]

Does a Lawful character neccacarily abide by the laws? In my opinion, they're just any character with an ordered life and a code that they follow. I don't think that many Paladins would choose to kill 5 innocent civilians upon entering a city...

That would counter the good side of their alignment, but not the lawful.

If the society felt it just and honorable to kill peasants when they stepped out of line, doing such would be lawful.

However I generally agree with your definitation.

I find lawful to be about a view of order, honor, structure, and group over individual (or rather, holding to the importance and strength of group dynamics).

Here's how I see lawful and chaos:
( http://home.pacbell.net/arcady0/fahla/alignment.html )

Law-Chaos: The rules and structure of society and groups. A lawful persons values the group or society. A chaotic person values the individual. Each works to oppose it's opposite. If you just value one side without opposing the other you are neutral with tendancies.

A lawful person therefore values groups, structure, and the rules of a society. They work well in group activities and do not like being forced to work alone. They can become lost and lacking in direction when there is no group structure.

A chaotic person is individualistic, works poorly in a group, and disfavors cooperation. Prefering their own thing instead. They rebel against organized groups and feel oppressed by the rules of having to function within them. In a highly structured society they will be outcast and feel a heavy burden on themselves from what they see as oppressiveness.

Prime examples:

Asian countries are often very lawful. The group is valued and individualism is seen as selfish and disrespectful.

The west; particularly the USA; is more chaotic. Though not fully so individualism and the ability to strike out on one's own is highly prized. However since it is a society and not an anarchy there is a dual nature in that it is also scorned and looked down upon if taken to a percieved excess.

LG: Abe Lincoln
LN: Confuscious
LE: Hitler
These three dedicated their lives to the ideals of society and the rule of law and order. But they go about it very differently and have very different concepts of an ordered world.

 

[Kamard]

That's the best, most succinct explanation of LG I've ever seen!

Thanks.

*pats self on back*

 

[Crothian]

AEG's book Good has a great chapter on all of this, it's a good read.

 

[reapersaurus]

no, Lawful does not necessarily mean law-abiding.

And arcady - nice to read a post from you -where ya been?

and in your renderosity gallery:
"Bird's Eye View" has to be the best title for an image I've ever heard.

Good work.

 

[Dragonblade]

My feeling on this is that a lawful good character will willfully obey the word and spirit of any law that he believes to be just.

A paladin would no doubt avoid that city.

Excellent!

However, instead of avoiding such a vile city, the paladin would seek it out and bring noble laws and justice to such place. By the sword if necessary.