Lead the Attack vs. solo monsters: unbalancing?

[phil500]

Lots of the replies here are along the lines of "solos are really tough, so it's ok for solo-killing powers to be strong" or "dailies are supposed to be strong, so it's ok for this daily to be strong". And those answers totally ignore the real question, which is "is this daily, and the class that has it, balanced against other dailies and other party configurations?"

Gloom gets it.

 

[Propagandroid]

This is how warlord's are *supposed* to work. And they were playtested with this ability in play.

Given the errata that just went up, I'm not sure I'd be using playtesting as a justification right about now.

 

[Yaezakura]

Lots of the replies here are along the lines of "solos are really tough, so it's ok for solo-killing powers to be strong" or "dailies are supposed to be strong, so it's ok for this daily to be strong". And those answers totally ignore the real question, which is "is this daily, and the class that has it, balanced against other dailies and other party configurations?"

And I think the general consensus is "No, it's not overpowered". Yes, it's very powerful. In one situation. Yes, it can completely turn a battle around. In one situation.

Lead the Attack is the definition of a specialist power. Is it useful in fights against non-solo monsters? Sure it is. But nowhere near as useful as, say, Bastion of Defense. But solo monsters (or other "boss" targets) are obviously what it was designed to handle.

I mean, solos have higher than normal defenses, along with higher than normal HP. Lead the Attack has to break through those higher than normal defenses. So chances are, your Lead the Attack won't even have a 50/50 chance of connecting (barring outside influences to your attack roll). Missing gives a much smaller bonus (though a bonus I'm sure will be appreciated all the same).

It's risk vs reward. You're putting a big investment (a standard action and daily power) into a chance of having a powerful impact against a single creature. That seems to me well balanced for a daily power.

 

[Liebot]

I think this is a balanced power certainly it can turn the tide in favor of the PCs but is that a bad thing? The DM should not be out to kill the players, and solo monsters are still a huge handful while they are alive. Also, as Yaekazura mentioned, if you blow the attack, that's it.

 

[Regicide]

I think this is a balanced power certainly it can turn the tide in favor of the PCs but is that a bad thing?

Yes. If a battle is won or lost on the roll of whether or not the warlord's daily hits and makes the mob trivial, then a lot of players aren't going to be having much fun.

 

[Gloombunny]

And I think the general consensus is "No, it's not overpowered". Yes, it's very powerful. In one situation. Yes, it can completely turn a battle around. In one situation.

Lead the Attack is the definition of a specialist power. Is it useful in fights against non-solo monsters? Sure it is. But nowhere near as useful as, say, Bastion of Defense. But solo monsters (or other "boss" targets) are obviously what it was designed to handle.

I mean, solos have higher than normal defenses, along with higher than normal HP. Lead the Attack has to break through those higher than normal defenses. So chances are, your Lead the Attack won't even have a 50/50 chance of connecting (barring outside influences to your attack roll). Missing gives a much smaller bonus (though a bonus I'm sure will be appreciated all the same).

It's risk vs reward. You're putting a big investment (a standard action and daily power) into a chance of having a powerful impact against a single creature. That seems to me well balanced for a daily power.

In that sense, it's probably balanced. I think I have issues with balancing powers that way, but that's getting into deeply theoretical territory.

(The issues have to do with "swinginess" and the extent to which a character should be permitted/encouraged/pushed into specializing for a particular sort of encounter.)

 

[Liebot]

Yes. If a battle is won or lost on the roll of whether or not the warlord's daily hits and makes the mob trivial, then a lot of players aren't going to be having much fun.

Like i said though, the battle isn't trivial. Solo's are still extremely dangerous. Being able to hit more frequently does not diminish the mob's lethality. The party can still lose.

Edit: If a DM does think this power is too much, try luring the player into popping it early. Throw a powerful elite in the way of the party so maybe the Warlord will use it. If you want to stack the deck, you can.

 

[Cadfan]

Yes. If a battle is won or lost on the roll of whether or not the warlord's daily hits and makes the mob trivial, then a lot of players aren't going to be having much fun.

Its not going to make anything trivial.

If the biggest thing you fight in a day is an Elite, then its not a big thing. So you wipe out one monster extra fast. Good for you! Now fight its buddies.

If you're fighting a solo, sure, you'll dramatically speed up how fast you kill it. If you were hitting 50% of the time and your warlord has a +5 int bonus, you will get a 50% increase in your damage output as a party. That means you'll defeat the monster in 2/3rds the time it would have otherwise taken you. So maybe a 12 round fight reduces to 8. STILL not a pushover fight.

If you were hitting only 25% of the time, it will halve the amount of time needed to kill the solo monster. But if you were hitting only 25% of the time, that number that just got halved was a really big number to start with. So again, who cares.

 

[Mal Malenkirk]

There is more than one encounter in a day of fighting.

So what if one is easier than the other?

I play a pretty deadly campaign with already one death and two close call in just three session. There is a Warlord with 'Lead the Attack'. He's no problem.

Not every fight need to be close call. If they all are, TPK will occur inevitably. If the party is extra good toward a certain type of battle, they tend to be weaker against another type. In the end, it evens out.

PS : The Solo encounter is the rarest of them all. Most days of adventuring doesn't even include one. By specializing in it, you take a fairly large cost of opportunity.

 

[Liebot]

Even if PCs blow your solo away, there's no reason for there not to be a follow up fight. The solo could be a pet for another group of monsters, and then you've a got a group who likely just spent all their dailies and now they have to get by on encounter powers and wits.