sword-dancer
Explorer
Or are you allowed to bring your weapons in the city?
Learning How To Roleplay Non-Hack
- Thread starter SHARK
- Start date
I'm A Banana
Potassium-Rich
A lot of this was probably left out because it will vary significantly from DM to DM.
Some cities you can, some cities you can't. Some kings are sociable, some aren't. In a fantasy universe, there's no reason one would have to adhere to even the most fundamental of the pseudo-medieval mindset.
And to harken back to older D&D: "Do some research."
Not that I wouldn't like an example of this (this should probably be something campaign settings, definately) wouldn't be helpful. Just that any example of this isn't going to be generic, and will be completely useless for any DM's who don't run things the way the author says to.
I wouldn't be against it, but I hardly think it's a nessecity...
Some cities you can, some cities you can't. Some kings are sociable, some aren't. In a fantasy universe, there's no reason one would have to adhere to even the most fundamental of the pseudo-medieval mindset.
And to harken back to older D&D: "Do some research."
Not that I wouldn't like an example of this (this should probably be something campaign settings, definately) wouldn't be helpful. Just that any example of this isn't going to be generic, and will be completely useless for any DM's who don't run things the way the author says to.
I wouldn't be against it, but I hardly think it's a nessecity...
Utrecht said:
Exactly so. And the rewards include not only experience points, but also success in adventures. And therefore PCs are drawn toward modes of action that are supported by dependable rules, and not reliant on the whim of the GM or the ability of the players to second-guess the GM. So the fact taht D&D's hard and fast rules are heavily concentrated in combat and a few stereotypal dungeon-clearing activities is another thing that draws PCs into hack&slash.
A game with rules for chases, patrolling & infiltration, persuasion, seduction, use of social influence, jousting, managing a fief or domain, commanding a unit in battle &c will attract PCs to those activities, especially if the rules allow the players to make consequential tactical decisions.
Regards,
Agback
Desdichado
Hero
I haven't read this whole thread, but as the subject is near and dear to my own heart, I'll chime in and risk repeating someone else.
First of all, d20, while it is mechanically one of the soundest, simplest, easiest and funnest systems I've used isn't necessarily at it's highest point in 3e. Don't get me wrong, 3e is a great game, but it's also a game that purposefully went back to D&D roots in mechanics and flavor, which means the kind of game you're describing wasn't really in the minds of the designers. The class balances, the way magic works, the suite of skills, feats, spells and items -- very clearly the focus is on running around in dungeons, killing monsters and taking their loot. For any other style of play, we are given a few short paragraphs, if anything at all.
Personally, one of my biggest gripes about 3e is the lack of regard the DMG pays to alternate gaming styles. However, as much as I regret this conscious design decision for 3e, at the same time, the kind of stuff you're asking for can't really be explained away in a book very well, nor can it be mechanically represented. Sure, you could design classes that weren't so loot dependent, and spells that weren't so obviously useless outside of dungeoneering types of environments, but even that would only take you a few steps towards the experience you probably want.
The real difference has to be the players and the DM. Intimate knowledge of the setting (as much as can be contrived anyway) for all players really helps, because then they don't have to fall back on cliches of the game, but can instead rely on what they know of the setting. Intricate backgrounds for each character explaining motivations, goals, histories and the like -- all that helps. And the threat of force against the characters if their behavior is completely unacceptable, plus making these types of activities more exciting than the alternative: all great advice, but pretty basic really, and do you really want an entire chapter or so of the DMG to tell you things like that? Perhaps experience, shared tastes and a little forethought are really the best tools you can use to get to a game like this.
Although a few small mechanical differences do help. It's amazing to me how the Wheel of Time game plays so differently for the most part from D&D, even though the systems are so similar.
First of all, d20, while it is mechanically one of the soundest, simplest, easiest and funnest systems I've used isn't necessarily at it's highest point in 3e. Don't get me wrong, 3e is a great game, but it's also a game that purposefully went back to D&D roots in mechanics and flavor, which means the kind of game you're describing wasn't really in the minds of the designers. The class balances, the way magic works, the suite of skills, feats, spells and items -- very clearly the focus is on running around in dungeons, killing monsters and taking their loot. For any other style of play, we are given a few short paragraphs, if anything at all.
Personally, one of my biggest gripes about 3e is the lack of regard the DMG pays to alternate gaming styles. However, as much as I regret this conscious design decision for 3e, at the same time, the kind of stuff you're asking for can't really be explained away in a book very well, nor can it be mechanically represented. Sure, you could design classes that weren't so loot dependent, and spells that weren't so obviously useless outside of dungeoneering types of environments, but even that would only take you a few steps towards the experience you probably want.
The real difference has to be the players and the DM. Intimate knowledge of the setting (as much as can be contrived anyway) for all players really helps, because then they don't have to fall back on cliches of the game, but can instead rely on what they know of the setting. Intricate backgrounds for each character explaining motivations, goals, histories and the like -- all that helps. And the threat of force against the characters if their behavior is completely unacceptable, plus making these types of activities more exciting than the alternative: all great advice, but pretty basic really, and do you really want an entire chapter or so of the DMG to tell you things like that? Perhaps experience, shared tastes and a little forethought are really the best tools you can use to get to a game like this.
Although a few small mechanical differences do help. It's amazing to me how the Wheel of Time game plays so differently for the most part from D&D, even though the systems are so similar.
jdavis
First Post
The White Wolf games always had stuff in them about roleplaying things out. Of course the flip side is that no game I have ever played was ever so slanted towards hack-slash as Werewolf.
As far as the what to do and what not to do in a setting part, isn't that what the setting books are about.
I don't see where the DMG was all that lacking for not covering this stuff in detail, you can't write a chapter on how to pretend to be your characters while roleplaying, or on how to score with Duchessess. There is a whole chapter on worldbuilding and two pages on variant experience awards including a section on story based exp rewards.
I am very suprised that there isn't a separate book on this topic out there, sort of a DM training guide as opposed to a rule book. Hints, tips and rule variations for the well rounded Dungeon Master. I'm sure it would sell.
As far as the what to do and what not to do in a setting part, isn't that what the setting books are about.
I don't see where the DMG was all that lacking for not covering this stuff in detail, you can't write a chapter on how to pretend to be your characters while roleplaying, or on how to score with Duchessess. There is a whole chapter on worldbuilding and two pages on variant experience awards including a section on story based exp rewards.
I am very suprised that there isn't a separate book on this topic out there, sort of a DM training guide as opposed to a rule book. Hints, tips and rule variations for the well rounded Dungeon Master. I'm sure it would sell.
Snoweel
First Post
I think it's the DM's job to provide relevant exposition throughout the course of the campaign.
All PC's, especially any character with a knowledge skill should be told what he/she knows about any facet of the setting when it either becomes appropriate or if he/she merely asks (within reason - a DM shouldn't need to know every little detail about his/her world before the campaign starts).
I mean, if the players react to a situation in a way that their characters definitely would not, then it is up to the DM to tell them - "Actually, your characters would be neither shocked nor horrified at the freeman beating his slave, and coming to the slave's rescue is a serious breach of the law in this land."
Things like that. Obviously, a player primer before the campaign starts is invaluable, and, dare I say it, necessary.
All PC's, especially any character with a knowledge skill should be told what he/she knows about any facet of the setting when it either becomes appropriate or if he/she merely asks (within reason - a DM shouldn't need to know every little detail about his/her world before the campaign starts).
I mean, if the players react to a situation in a way that their characters definitely would not, then it is up to the DM to tell them - "Actually, your characters would be neither shocked nor horrified at the freeman beating his slave, and coming to the slave's rescue is a serious breach of the law in this land."
Things like that. Obviously, a player primer before the campaign starts is invaluable, and, dare I say it, necessary.
William Ronald
Explorer
I would suggest that a DM introduce new players to situations where there characters will have to respond with something other than combat.
For example, the characters might attend the funeral of a mentor of one of the characters. It could be considered bad form for them not to attend. Perhaps the characters can interact with the NPCs as they imagine their characters would. There may even be an adventure hook that the players would not have found without the social interaction. If this is the case, even those who are a little uncomfortable role playing can see the rewards in it.
Similarly, I think the skill system can help. I think the best way to handle it is for the players to try to interact with NPCs and perhaps use the skill system to determine some things and role playing on others. For example, I am never likely to be asked by the State Department to be a diplomat. However, my characters can try to interact with others and a DM may decide that I have at least established a rapport with the NPC. Asking them something difficult, such as information might reasonably require a skill check.
As for rewards, that is something for individual DMs to decide. A key question that DMs should ask is how important the interaction was and how much of a challenge was it to the players. Some experience point can and should be awarded to the player whose rogue successfully convinces people that he is the son of a celebrity (like Will Smith in Seven Degrees of Separation) or the diplomat who wins an ally for his nation.
For example, the characters might attend the funeral of a mentor of one of the characters. It could be considered bad form for them not to attend. Perhaps the characters can interact with the NPCs as they imagine their characters would. There may even be an adventure hook that the players would not have found without the social interaction. If this is the case, even those who are a little uncomfortable role playing can see the rewards in it.
Similarly, I think the skill system can help. I think the best way to handle it is for the players to try to interact with NPCs and perhaps use the skill system to determine some things and role playing on others. For example, I am never likely to be asked by the State Department to be a diplomat. However, my characters can try to interact with others and a DM may decide that I have at least established a rapport with the NPC. Asking them something difficult, such as information might reasonably require a skill check.
As for rewards, that is something for individual DMs to decide. A key question that DMs should ask is how important the interaction was and how much of a challenge was it to the players. Some experience point can and should be awarded to the player whose rogue successfully convinces people that he is the son of a celebrity (like Will Smith in Seven Degrees of Separation) or the diplomat who wins an ally for his nation.
The game already presupposes a quasi-medieval setting with specific weapons technology (Orc double axe, spiked chain), alchemy (tanglefoot bags), spells (Nystul's, Tenser's), gods (Pelor, Cuthbert), etc.
I can't imagine that generic info on what a town looks like, how a castle court operates, how medieval justice works, etc. would be unusably specific -- especially not to new DMs and players.
That's reasonable, but then the DM has to know enough to provide that exposition -- and most new DMs haven't read (and don't want to read) numerous academic texts to know how a typical quasi-medieval society works. Couldn't a few pages of the DMG -- as many as they devoted to dungeon trappings -- go to social trappings?
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