Least favorite Prc

[Chun-tzu]

Someone who is a wizard, multiclassed or not, is hardly likely to want for skill points. After all, the class only gets 2 skill points per level but you never hear of anyone complaining that wizards get too few skills.

Well, duh. After all, hong, we all KNOW that Wizards are so underpowered that munchkins never play them, only TRUE roleplayers do. And as we also know, TRUE roleplayers take pride in spending their skill points and feats on the most worthless choices available, because they have to go out of their way to prove they're not munchkins.

Like my friend Ed, he had some wizard named Elnimster or something, and he spent all his skill points on Perform: Blowing Smoke. I think he was referring to Elnimster's pipe, but I could be mistaken.

And my friend Tracy, he had some wizard named Rastlin or something. He made a deal with his DM and said that he'd play a useless wizard who gave everything to his magic: crappy stats, crappy feats, crappy skills - just magic. Tracy's one condition, though, was that Rastlin had to have a big staff. As long as he had that big staff, he was happy. I think he put Rastlin's skill points into Craft: Teamaking.

And don't get me started on my friend Ian. His wizard was named Gandelf or something. He spent his feats on stuff like Martial Weapon Proficiency: Sword, because as we all know, there's nothing more useless than a wizard with a sword.

 

[Psion]

Like I said before...it's not as effective as a single classed character if you try to treat it like a 20th level evoker.

Yes, I read that, and my statement came AFTER your post to that effect. So in short, I do not agree, and no amount of annyoingly italicized statements is going to make it so. It's not just a matter of "can this character blast as well as a 20th level evoker" but "does this character have as much to contribute to a 20th level party as a sigle class 20th level character of any class." Take a look at a 20th level evoker, barbarian, fighter, rogue, or cleric and ponder what kinds of things that they can do at that level, and then consider whether or not having 5 levels of rogue makes up for losing 5 levels of wizard. To me, cearly it does not. Losing a single level of arcane spellcaster is a significant setback... losing FIVE levels is a sock in the gut.

 

[TiQuinn]

Take a look at a 20th level evoker, barbarian, fighter, rogue, or cleric and ponder what kinds of things that they can do at that level, and then consider whether or not having 5 levels of rogue makes up for losing 5 levels of wizard. To me, cearly it does not. Losing a single level of arcane spellcaster is a significant setback... losing FIVE levels is a sock in the gut.

Seems to me it's an issue of what the player perceives his character to be. Is he a primarily a rogue who is augmenting his abilities with wizard or sorcerer levels, or vice versa? I think a Rog10/Wiz10 offers the character a lot of spells that complement his thieving abilities, if he is still focused on being a rogue. If his concept is a wizard, then any divergence from wizard is going to weaken him.

 

[drnuncheon]

Yes, I read that, and my statement came AFTER your post to that effect. So in short, I do not agree, and no amount of annyoingly italicized statements is going to make it so. It's not just a matter of "can this character blast as well as a 20th level evoker" but "does this character have as much to contribute to a 20th level party as a sigle class 20th level character of any class." Take a look at a 20th level evoker, barbarian, fighter, rogue, or cleric and ponder what kinds of things that they can do at that level, and then consider whether or not having 5 levels of rogue makes up for losing 5 levels of wizard. To me, cearly it does not. Losing a single level of arcane spellcaster is a significant setback... losing FIVE levels is a sock in the gut.

Perhaps I would be more likely to believe you if you showed me what a 20th level rogue could do that the Rog/Wiz (or the Arcane Trickster) could not, instead of just baldly saying "it can't contribute as well as a wizard".

Like I went on to say - losing a single level of spellcasting is a significant setback for a wizard, certainly. For a character that is primarily a rogue (even if they've got more wizard levels), it's not nearly as big of a deal.

If you're going to multiclass a spellcaster in 3e, you can't think of yourself as a spellcaster or else you'll cripple yourself with all the "oh, I lost a level of spells" stuff. If you think of yourself as a fighter or rogue or whatever with access to spells, and you try to fulfill the role of a fighter or a rogue or whatever instead of that of a wizard, you will be a lot better off.

That's how I'm viewing arcane trickster - as a rogue-with-spells, not as a wizard-with-sneak-attack. Nobody who wants to play a straight wizard is going to go into the class - they're going to take it because they want to play a magical thief. I think that even with every-other-level caster increases, the arcane trickster could easily contribute just as much as his singleclassed counterparts - provided he was trying to be an excellent rogue and not a half-baked wizard.

You do get the full sneak attack progression of 10 levels of rogue, but you're much less likely to use your sneak attack, as getting up in combat and flanking is going to get your ass kicked quickly.

If the only way you can think of to get sneak attacks with 15 levels of spellcasting is to flank...

Improved invisibility. Mislead. Blink. Expeditious Retreat + Spring Attack. Pump your AC with shield, and/or cast haste and use one of the actions for total defense so they can't hit you. Suck up the hits with stoneskin. Set up your own flanking with summon monster so you don't have to worry about the rest of your friends doing what you want them to. polymorph into a more effective combat form. Use tenser's transformation. hold monster so they're helpless - not only can you sneak attack, you can coup de grace.

And don't forget, sneak attacks can not only be ranged, you can perform them with certain spells. That ray of enfeeblement is suddenly capable of doing 1d6+7 Str damage and 8d6 negative energy damage. Not bad for a first level spell (and it's a ranged touch attack too - can't beat that for a high-Dex rogue!)

And yes, a 20th level wizard could outclass a rogue too - but they're not likely to if their job is primarily to be an arcane spellcaster. If they focus all their spells on substituting for a rogue, they will be a poor wizard. A rogue-with-wizard-levels focusing all his spells on being a better rogue, on the other hand, makes a lot more sense.

J

 

[drquestion]

Originally posted by drnucheon
And yes, a 20th level wizard could outclass a rogue too - but they're not likely to if their job is primarily to be an arcane spellcaster. If they focus all their spells on substituting for a rogue, they will be a poor wizard.

This is the entire point we're trying to make. Yes, from a certain point of view a Wiz20 could out-rogue a rogue. So could a Wiz15/Rog5. If they do so, they'll both be giving up other wizardy areas. However, this affects the Wiz20 much less than the Wiz15/Rog5, and the Wiz15/Rog5 isn't really getting anything out of his 5 Rogue levels. Whether or not you play him as a rogue makes no difference. You could play a Wiz20 as a rogue, and be more effective in every way, unless you wanted to create some kind of invisible+ranged sneak attack one-trick pony, but even with ranged touch spells, this is hardly your most effective combat option when you have things like fireball and chain lightning available to you.

As I've said several times above, whereas your usefullness as a fighter or rogue increases even if you're not taking fighter or rogue levels, your usefullness as a caster doesn't.

So, a Ftr10/Rog10 doesn't just have the ability of a 10th level fighter, plus the ability of a 10th level rogue. Because there's synergy between his two classes, he has something approximating the ability of a 16th or 17th level fighter, plus something approximating the ability of a 12th or 13th level rogue. The reason for the imbalance between the two is the small amount of skill points that a fighter gets.

OTOH, a Wiz10/Rog10, like the Ftr/Rog has approximately the ability of a 12th or 13th level rogue (ignoring for a moment the issue of ability bonuses), but only the ability of a 10th level wizard, because there is no synergy there.

Perhaps I would be more likely to believe you if you showed me what a 20th level rogue could do that the Rog/Wiz (or the Arcane Trickster) could not, instead of just baldly saying "it can't contribute as well as a wizard".

The Rog20 can do lots of things that the Wiz/Rog or the Trickster can't. His sneak attack is +10d6, and he's likely to be much more able to withstand being in a flanking position in combat in order to be able to use it. He also has a better BAB, so he succeeds more often in hitting with it. He's likely to be able to tumble much better, in order to get into position to flank without drawing AoO's. The opportunity to do +10d6 damage 2 or 3 times around with a full attack action, or even once a round with a standard action (assuming the rogue is trying to spring attack, or something), is nothing to scoff at. Sure, the Trickster has a 7d6 sneak attack, but, as I've said above, he's going to have a harder time using it. Plus, the extra 3d6 is a big difference, even over the length of one combat.

The straight rogue also has more skill points than the multi, so he's going to be better at most of his rogue skills and have more of them. Unlike the multi, he doesn't need to rely on a limited number of spells to be effective. He can hide, or pick locks, or disable traps, or spot hidden creatures as much as he wants. Sure, the Wiz could dimension door past a locked door, but how many times can he do it? 4-6 times a day, and that's if he blows all his 4th level spells on it (remember that he also needs improved invis, and possibly poly self at this level to be an effective rogue, too). Plus, when the Rogue picks the lock, he can also get his friends through the door at the same time as him, instead of foolishly leaving them on the other side, like the guy who dimension doored.

The Rogue also has improved evasion (which the Rog10/Wiz10 probably also has, but not the others), which means that even if he flubs and fails his reflex save against a fireball or dragon's breath or something, he's not toast. He also has other cool special abilities. Skill Mastery means that he doesn't have to worry about flubbing a roll on his skills anymore. Opportunist can grant him still another sneak attack if he's flanking in combat - there's another 10d6 of damage. Crippling strike means that for every two sneak attacks that he does, his opponent gets a -1 to hit and damage. Defensive Roll can save his ass from dying. Or, he could choose to have bonus feats instead of these, in order to increase his combat ability.

All of these are areas in which the straight Rogue outshines the Wiz/Rog or the Trickster. Now, granted, the rogue might feel outshined on those occasions when the wizard does choose to use his spells to duplicate rogue abilities, but how is this any different from the fighter feeling outshined when the wizard busts out with a chain lightning or a horrid wilting? Both characters know that they're being outshined at the moment, but that they have a steadier rate of long-term performance.

 

[drnuncheon]

Sure, the Trickster has a 7d6 sneak attack, but, as I've said above, he's going to have a harder time using it. Plus, the extra 3d6 is a big difference, even over the length of one combat.

8d6 - Rog5 gives you 3d6, and you get 5d6 from Arcane Trickster. (The misprinted table assumes you go in as Rog4.) With all of his spells, I also don't buy that the Trickster will have a harder time using his sneak attack, when there are so many that set him up to do so perfectly.

The straight rogue also has more skill points than the multi,

Perhaps not as many as you might think - the one with wizard levels certainly has a greater incentive to have a high Int.

so he's going to be better at most of his rogue skills and have more of them. Unlike the multi, he doesn't need to rely on a limited number of spells to be effective. He can hide, or pick locks, or disable traps, or spot hidden creatures as much as he wants. Sure, the Wiz could dimension door past a locked door, but how many times can he do it? 4-6 times a day, and that's if he blows all his 4th level spells on it (remember that he also needs improved invis, and possibly poly self at this level to be an effective rogue, too). Plus, when the Rogue picks the lock, he can also get his friends through the door at the same time as him, instead of foolishly leaving them on the other side, like the guy who dimension doored.

That would indeed be pretty foolish, when he could knock.

In terms of skills, the arcane trickster is likely to lag behind in a couple of skills, it's true. He gets 4 less skill points per level, but on the other hand it's not unreasonable to assume that his Int will be higher and thus give him more bonus skills. (The optimum distribution of stats is different for a rog/wiz than it is for a rogue. And hey, he can always make up for the slightly lower dex with a 15-hour cat's grace.)

All of these are areas in which the straight Rogue outshines the Wiz/Rog or the Trickster. Now, granted, the rogue might feel outshined on those occasions when the wizard does choose to use his spells to duplicate rogue abilities, but how is this any different from the fighter feeling outshined when the wizard busts out with a chain lightning or a horrid wilting? Both characters know that they're being outshined at the moment, but that they have a steadier rate of long-term performance.

Right - that's part of the tradeoff. But none of what you said has done anything to prove to me that a Trickster needs 15 levels of spellcasting to be comparable. Let's look at a trickster with only 10 levels of spellcasting.

He's going to lag behind his single-class counterpart in number of maxed-out skills - the regular rogue probably has 10 or so of his skills at 23 ranks, if that's how he chose to spend his points, while the trickster can probably max out 5 or so. He'll have to be slightly more specialized as a rogue.

On the other hand, if he doesn't try to max, he isn't lagging that much - 18 ranks as opposed to 23 is not nearly as big of a deal as 1 rank compared to 6. So he could easily have 7 skills at quite respectable levels. Not quite as good, sure - but we don't want him to be as good. He's still likely to be able to do the traditional thiefly things just about as well as the 20th level rogue, and he's got spells to back him up if he needs them.

He's got 2 less points of sneak attack, but if he uses his brain, he's going to be hitting a lot more with his sneak attack, even given the lower BAB - because he'll be using spells which require a touch attack, not a regular attack.

He can cast (for example) passwall, telekinesis, improved invisibility (twice), polymorph self, haste, blink, fly, displacement, cat's grace, bull's strength, knock (twice), invisibility, chill touch, ray of enfeeblement, shield, spider climb, and expeditious retreat, any number of combinations of which will enable him to engage in melee combat and/or perform sneak attacks with great prowess, as well as enjoy a host of other benefits. (Plus, he can change his spells to suit a situation, which the rogue cannot do with his skills.)

Does he really need 3 more spell levels and 10 more spells per day to keep up with the 20th level rogue? Does he really need the ability to cast horrid wilting and limited wish to be effective? I don't believe so.

Maybe the right balance is somewhere in between the two, I'm not sure. But I'm not convinced that you need to be able to toss 8th level spells to be happy as an arcane trickster.

J