LEB Discussion Thread '09

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ukingsken

First Post
I think 1-4 wouldn't be too much of a gap... until the level 4 characters started to go up levels anyway. The other problem with the level 4 start of course is that you'd end up having two classes of adventures would you not, 1 for level 4's and 1 for lvls 1-3?

Although I do remember earlier on someone saying that the RPGA itself uses 1-4 5-8 and 9-11 or something along those lines, so obviously it must not be as big a problem as it seems?

And I personally am in favor of the fractioned (13/9*etc etc) because thats the amount of wealth wotc has mechanically assumed youd have. Where its time exp it might not have a big impact but it isn't a hard thing to do and then we dont need to worry. Also for those non fraction people 13/9 = 1.44444444 ad nauseum. :D
 

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stonegod

Spawn of Khyber/LEB Judge
People(unless you are a math major ;) ) tend to dislike fractions. I'd rather see the gp of one level n item...
Computers, my friends. Computers. And yes, Player Points incorporate Time XP and such. I'm thinking about just calling them "Reward Points" (RPs) and just give DMs 2 RPs (so we don't have both PP and DMPs running around).
1-4 does feel a bit too big of a gap. I don't know about others but because level 4 is a "big one", I tend to feel better about myself when I get there. Starting there would take away from that sense of accomplishment.
I think 1-4 wouldn't be too much of a gap... until the level 4 characters started to go up levels anyway. The other problem with the level 4 start of course is that you'd end up having two classes of adventures would you not, 1 for level 4's and 1 for lvls 1-3?

Although I do remember earlier on someone saying that the RPGA itself uses 1-4 5-8 and 9-11 or something along those lines, so obviously it must not be as big a problem as it seems?
That's what I've heard. 4 is a big-bang level, as stated. We are going to start with at least (and probably only) level 5 character (one of the chars I'm importing), so having a few 4s around might be nice. Anyone else have an opinion?
And I personally am in favor of the fractioned (13/9*etc etc) because thats the amount of wealth wotc has mechanically assumed youd have. Where its time exp it might not have a big impact but it isn't a hard thing to do and then we dont need to worry. Also for those non fraction people 13/9 = 1.44444444 ad nauseum. :D
You might be right.
 

ukingsken

First Post
Computers, my friends. Computers. And yes, Player Points incorporate Time XP and such. I'm thinking about just calling them "Reward Points" (RPs) and just give DMs 2 RPs (so we don't have both PP and DMPs running around).

I think that would simplify matters a lot. Much easier to just scale the amount of one thing given then to needlessly create 2 reward point systems where one would suffice.

That's what I've heard. 4 is a big-bang level, as stated. We are going to start with at least (and probably only) level 5 character (one of the chars I'm importing), so having a few 4s around might be nice. Anyone else have an opinion?
You might be right.

I think that sounds good. Level 4 would be a nice level to start, lots of fun stuff goin on there, and that way we might get to see some paragon tier play within a year or two!

I was also thinking that instead of allowig a range of starting levels, let new players start at level four and continue the theme of promoting committment to the community by allowing returning players (those who played in LEB 3.5) to import/convert characters of level 4-6?? That way it encourages people to try a new system or come back to the community, while at the same time keeping us all close enough in level that we could adventure in the same parties.

Besides honestly most people would choose the higher level out of any given range and then anyone who chose 4 might soon be left behind somewhat.

[sblock=Character] Am I the only one who wants to play an artificer but desperately does not want to be part of the flood of artificers since theyre a newly available class?

Although to be fair my best artificer concept involves a race that will not be legal at first anyway. But I mean, Wilden artificer, using hated technology to slow civilization's advance, I could have soooo much fun with the duality presented by that idea.[/sblock]
 
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Goumindong

First Post
Computers, my friends. Computers. And yes, Player Points incorporate Time XP and such. I'm thinking about just calling them "Reward Points" (RPs) and just give DMs 2 RPs (so we don't have both PP and DMPs running around).

If we're going the reward point method for both DM handing out and item handing out then we're probably going to have a slight item level problem dealing with the typically random/non random DM distribution in games.

By random i am referring to the fact that you get item levels between n+1 and n+4 and gold, and by non-random i am referring to the tendency of DM's to hand out items in that distribution in a manner that favors higher + values for the "big three", at least in a normal and expected game

I.E. between levels 2 to 4 the DM should hand out 3 lvl 6 or higher items, they are all likely to be weapons, armor, or neck items rather than accessories. Players receiving gold per level will not get the extra + boosts from big three items until later in their carreer. Its really easy to see this when you look at the jumps betewen item levels of 5 and 6 and 10 and 11 and then realize that by level 5, a party of 5 should have 6 +2 items of various values.

fake edit: intraplus levels[I.E. lvl 1 to lvl 2] is a flat value equal to 44.44% of the base levels value[I.E. 360->520->680= lvl 1 ->lvl2->lvl3], interplus levels[I.E. lvl 5 to 6] looks to be about an 80% increase in value from the previous level.

I.E. 360 x 13/9 = 520 = 360+160. Lvl 3 item = 360+160x2, lvl 4 item = 360+160x3, lvl 5 item = 360+160x4 = 1000. Lvl 6 item = 1000 x 1.8, lvl 7 item = 1800 x 13/9 = 2600. Lvl 8 item = 1800 + 800x2. etc etc etc.

I have found that this relationship holds true throuought all the levels as confirmed by my table calculations. It creates a situation where players will not be able to attain higher + items until they hit those upper levels while in the course of a regular game they would likely be able to attain them earlier.

It also means that the N+1,N, N-1 starting wealth is much greater for characters that are levels 5,6,or 7 proportionately to characters of levels 4, 5, or 6. After accounting for an linear wealth increase by level.


That's what I've heard. 4 is a big-bang level, as stated. We are going to start with at least (and probably only) level 5 character (one of the chars I'm importing), so having a few 4s around might be nice. Anyone else have an opinion?

IMO for a PbP game 3-7 is an optimal starting point. Levels 1-3 are great for face to face games, because they allow a group to get to know how their character operates within the context of a fight and thus advance better and mesh better before they attain more options which makes their combat decision making more complicated.

But in pbp, more complicated decision making is not much of a big deal since each individual has so much more time between decision points to make it. This makes the higher resources available less taxing on the groups time as they make their decisions. If you start out at a low level, a lot of your combat is likely to degenerate into the "i use my at will" combat drag that doesn't really do anything for people who don't have constrains on their decision making time.

As such, i like a starting level between 3-7, when you have a good amount of encounter powers to choose from. If the highest level being imported from the previous living world is 5, then a level 3-4 starting is probably a good point, balancing new player actions with imported player history preference.

You might be right.

If we end up deciding on the gold method[and while its not perfect, its a perfectly fine decision] then it is not really hard to make a table of all the values

Hell.

[sblock=13/9 table for levels 1-30, rounded to nearest copper piece]
1 = 520
2 = 751.11
3 = 982.22
4 = 1213.33
5 = 1444.44
6 = 2600
7 = 3755.56
8 = 4911.11
9 = 6066.67
10 = 7222.23
11 = 13000
12 = 18777.78
13 = 24555.56
14 = 30333.33
15 = 36111.11
16 = 65000
17 = 93888.89
18 = 122777.78
19 = 515666.67
20 = 180555.56
21 = 325000
22 = 369444.44
23 = 613888.89
24 = 758333.32
25 = 902777.77
26 = 1625000
27 = 2347222.22
28 = 3069444.44
29 = 3791666.67
30 = 4513888.89
[/sblock]
 

ukingsken

First Post
Well, I see someone had some excel time sitting around begging to be used :D

Props to you for doing legwork I wouldn't want to do, and I agree with you assessment that the interplus levels exhibit a significantly higher increase that could affect character wealth. Thoughts about how to address it though?
 

Goumindong

First Post
Well, I see someone had some excel time sitting around begging to be used :D

Props to you for doing legwork I wouldn't want to do, and I agree with you assessment that the interplus levels exhibit a significantly higher increase that could affect character wealth. Thoughts about how to address it though?


Actually i just used the calculator function in XP.

13/9 -> Set in memory

360 x memory = 2

- 360 = bonus

2+(bonus x memory) = 3

=4

=5

/memory x 1.8= base 6

x memory = 6

- base 6 = bonus

6+bonus x memory = 7

Copy/paste makes it really really easy then i just cleaned up the variables at the end. Took about 5-10 minutes.

__________________________________

As for solving the interplus level problem I am not sure, i like a "treasure parcel of 5" system where the DM, instead of giving 10 treasure parcels with a total value equal to that number gives a single treasure parcel to each player per level, this treasure parcel contains an item of n+x level or gold of n lvl. Each level the player gets via time XP, get gets to choose a parcel so long as he has not received one already.

At the end of 5 levels, every player should be able to account for each parcel he received and would have 1 lvl +4 item, 1 lvl +3 item, one lvl +2 item, one lvl +1 item, and one set of cash equal to lvl. So long as you record which parcel you received at level up [I.E. a level 5 character might have an item section that looked like so]

lvl 1:
Lvl +2 item[lvl 3 item = X]

Lvl 2:
Lvl n of gold [520 cash and goods]

Lvl 3:
Lvl +4 item[lvl 7 item]

Lvl 4:
Lvl +1 Item[lvl 5 item]

Lvl 5:
No parcel received yet

And when he received a parcel it would necessarily be a lvl +2 item, a second lvl 7 item. Then once he hit lvl 6, this would start again.

Since each player in a 5 person party can expect, assuming an equal distribution of wealth between them all, to get 4 items of level n+4,3,2,1 and a set of gold equal to lvl n per 5 levels[5 players get that distribution 5 times between levels 1 and hitting lvl 6] you're still on the item wealth progression path, but you're not necessarily stuck with lower items than you might otherwise be when dealing with the interplus levels

This meshes with my idea of how Eberron plays out in adventures as well, with rewards coming in large chunks rather than trickling in, but that is a personal thing.

It has additional benefits in that players can choose the parcels they want when they create a character over 1st level, which will slightly increase their wealth, but greatly bring together the expected wealth of the players accross the different starting levels.

So long as a DM is cognizant of what a player has and may want, it also means that DM's don't need to feel bad about handing out a lot (or a little) of treasure, since, instead of treasure being based on playing and time separately, its pegged to what level you are. If you level up before receiving a parcel from your DM in the game, you choose one. If you receive a parcel before you level up you don't choose one.

Simple accounting of what is chosen each level keeps wealth distribution in line with all the levels and makes it easier for DM's to assign treasure based on who is in the party for multi-level parties. Instead of having to wonder how the party might split the gold, they simply give out an item explicitly for one player at that players level + something they haven't received yet, or give one player an item they can sell equivalent to the cost of an item of their level.

That all being said, i can understand the advantages of the time gold method.
 

ukingsken

First Post
No I think looking over what you're proposing that's just about the most succinct way I've ever seen proposed to deal with this issue in a pbp setting.

I can't speak for everyone here but I am all for the system you just described. It isn't really any additional work for the DM, just a change in how the work is done, it's only a little bit of leg work for the PC (I'm thinking maybe 10 minutes per level maxiumum), and it almost completely eliminates the problem of wealth disparity in other systems we have as of yet discussed.

I'm kind of amazed by how simplistic the solution is now that I see it spelled out. I hope everyone else likes this as much as I do.

PS - I just like excel and would have used it anyway hahaha maybe done up some charts and graphs
 

stonegod

Spawn of Khyber/LEB Judge
The system is fairly simple to follow (always a good thing). Of course, there are some caveats I see:
  1. It does constrain DMs significantly in what they can give out. On advantage of the current system (excluding time) is that one can mix different parcels together on the gold size for different effects. This is a somewhat minor issue (I think), but it is there.
  2. The "when character levels, they get any parcels they would have gotten outstanding" will sit poorly with DMs when that happens during their adventure (I prefer our system to be as reasonably hands-off as possible). A system where a PC essentially gets an IOU (i.e., choose the parcel they would get but the DM actually rewards the item at some point of their choosing in game) would work better and still keep the core of the system.
  3. It reduces (significantly) the amount of gold a PC will get. If I read it correctly, a PC will only get any gold from an adventure once every 5 levels. There are a lot of incidentals a PC needs to pay for (enchantment of items, rituals, etc.). While one can sweep some of the lower cost items under the rug, the larger items are more difficult.
  4. Its underspreading wealth. In a level, parcels of items n+1, n+2, n+3, n+4, and gp (or equivalent) or 2*(item n in gold) are given. You give out the first 5, but not the last.
  5. The system is built around 5 PC parties. This is not always the case.
  6. Remember, not all parties will be the same. I might have a party of one set of people and then another set the next level. In the worst case scenario, 5 folks that have been in different parties levels 1-4 who have gotten all the same parcels in those separate groups will be stuck (forced to do an 'unbalanced pick') if they are all together at 5th level. Yes, this is a perverse corner case but its important to think about them.

Of these, the third one is the most important. It essentially kills the alchemy/ritual component/potion/etc. market as when someone needs those, they'll almost never have the cash on hand. However, the solution seems to speak for itself in the fourth point: There's an extra bit of gp worth gold of level n that should be distributed equally per level.

So, this system has some promise. But I want to here from more folks (and I'm going to link this post in L4W to get some feedback from there as well) before committing to this.
 

ukingsken

First Post
I agree with all your points, I guess the real question then becomes: With refinement can the downsides of this system be less unbalancing then the previously proposed system?
 

Goumindong

First Post
I am going to break this down to better address either how to solve the issues, explain why they are not issues in my mind, or to ask for further information.

  1. It does constrain DMs significantly in what they can give out. On advantage of the current system (excluding time) is that one can mix different parcels together on the gold size for different effects. This is a somewhat minor issue (I think), but it is there.

I am not sure what you mean here. Can you explain it a bit further.
The "when character levels, they get any parcels they would have gotten outstanding" will sit poorly with DMs when that happens during their adventure (I prefer our system to be as reasonably hands-off as possible). A system where a PC essentially gets an IOU (i.e., choose the parcel they would get but the DM actually rewards the item at some point of their choosing in game) would work better and still keep the core of the system.
This can be solved by simply bumping up the item, at 1 parcel per player per level. A DM with 4 players gives out 4 parcels, a DM with 6 gives out 6 parcels

It reduces (significantly) the amount of gold a PC will get. If I read it correctly, a PC will only get any gold from an adventure once every 5 levels. There are a lot of incidentals a PC needs to pay for (enchantment of items, rituals, etc.). While one can sweep some of the lower cost items under the rug, the larger items are more difficult.
I don't think it does. Though it does change when that gold arrives. Consider this. Over the course of level 1, players will receive 360 gold, a lvl 2, 3, 4, and 5 item. So, assuming that the DM gives these out and the players split the gold, each player has 1/5 of 360 gold(72 gold) and 4 have 1 item.

Under my system, 4 players have 1 item, and one player has 360 gold. The same total gold and the same total items, but instead the gold is concentrated into one persons hands

The second level comes along and 4 more items and 1 more gold parcel are distributed. 4 players gain 1 item and one player, not the player with 360 gold, gains 520 gold. So far, the same amount of gold has been distributed, except that its more concentrated.

In a normal game, the game assumes that players pool their gold to purchase items. But we can't really expect that to happen in a living world where their fates are not as closely tied. In that case, giving the gold in lump sums allows those players to more easily purchase what they want if they want to purchase.

So, under the standard assumption you've at the start of level 3 you've got items of level 2,3,4,5,3,4,5,6 assigned to 5 players and each players has 176 gold. 176 Gold is not enough to buy many rituals or enchant any items. In order to purchase items, people need to give their gold to others.

But in this system players have items of level 2,3,4,5,3,4,5,6 spread between 5 players, one of the players that has only 1 item has 360 gold and one of the characters that has only 1 item has 520 gold. 520 gold or 360 gold is plenty to purchase items with, even enchant things.

In the end, those that get more gold have less strong items, but because all the gold is concentrated, those that don't get items and instead get gold earlier are better able to utilize it because they have far more than they would have if the gold were being split under the standard assumption.

This holds true even with time gold/xp unless very large amounts of XP are given via time. I actually think ritual, alchemy, and enchantment value of gold is much higher in a system where you're giving it out in chuncks to single players rather than letting it accumulate slowly to individuals.

This also lets DM's give gold wealth to classes that enchant items, or use rituals faster while those characters who do not need gold as early in the game are able to use the items they would be otherwise. After 2 levels, instead of the rogue, ranger and fighter having 170 GP apiece that they aren't going to use for rituals or alchemy, the artificer has 520 gold and the wizard 360, one twice as much as they would have otherwise, and one three times as much, though they may have fewer items

Its underspreading wealth. In a level, parcels of items n+1, n+2, n+3, n+4, and gp (or equivalent) or 2*(item n in gold) are given. You give out the first 5, but not the last.
? In a level, for a party of 5, items of level +4, +3, +2, and +1 are given and GP equal to an item of lvl n. You give out all of them, one to each party member.

If the party size is larger or smaller you simply add or subtract another parcel of any quality to the mix. Since each PC has their own record, you can give out parcels in any manner that fits each individual PC's wealth. If you wanted, you could give out, for the first level of 6 PC's, 6 sets of gold, starting everyone out with 360 gold. Or you could give them all items. Because the next time anyone gives them items, they just say "my reward for this character can't use this parcel that has already used" and then select the reward they want to give.

The standard item set was making an unspoken assumption, and that is my fault. It was making the assumption that you had 5 players playing over 5 levels. This is unnecessary, it just makes explaining handing items out easier.

A better way to word it would be like this.

"Each DM gives out x number of parcels per level, where x is the number of players in his party, he choses either a lvl n+1, n+2, n+3, n+4 item, or item worth lvl n+0 in gold per character and distributes those out to each character as rewards where n is the level of the character in question at the time he receives it and not the level of the party. He may not give any player any one of the rewards listed that that player has received within the current half of a tier of play[I.E between lvls 1 and 5, 6 and 10, 11 and 15, 16 and 20, 21 and 25 and 26 and 30]. A DM may give this parcel out to the player at any point during that level. If a player has not received a reward by the time he levels up due to time XP, he may chose a reward that he has not received within the current half tier of play."

Since a DM may still have treasure to give to a player, he can simply assign that parcel to the next level since a player can receive his reward at any point during a level.

So lets take a party of 6 mixed characters to level 5-6. Lets say we have a:

Lvl 1 fighter [no treasure]
lvl 2 Bard [Gold, N+2]
Lvl 2 Rogue [N+4, No treasure]
Lvl 3 Wizard [N+1, Gold, no treasure]

Before the fighter hits 2, the DM can give him any treasure parcel, before the bard his lvl 4 the DM can give him any parcel that is not gold or an item at N+3. Before the rogue hits 3 the Dm can give him any parcel not or N+3, and before the wizard hits 4 he needs to receive any parcel not N+1, or gold.

So, everyone gains a level after some play, the fighter has received a lvl 5 armor, an N+4 armor, the bard gets nothing, the Rogue gets gold, and the wizard gets an N+4 wand

Lvl 2 fighter [N+4, no treasure]
lvl 3 Bard [Gold, N+2, no treasure]
Lvl 3 Rogue [N+4, Gold, No treasure]
Lvl 4 Wizard [N+1, Gold, N+4, no treasure]

Now the fighter, bard and rogue are going to level before the wizard hits 5, but everyone is going to get items. Say the fighter levels 2 times, the bard and rogue once and everyone ends up close to level 5. The fighter gains 3 items, gold, N+3, N+2. The bard gains 2 items, N+1, N+4, the rogue gains 1 item, N+3, and the wizard gains 1 item, N+2

Now we look like this

Lvl 4 fighter [N+4, Gold, N+3, N+2]
lvl 4 Bard [Gold, N+2, N+1, N+4]
Lvl 4 Rogue [N+4, Gold, N+3, no treasure]
Lvl 4 Wizard [N+1, Gold, N+4, N+2]

Time XP kicks in and knocks the wizard and rogue up to lvl 5, the rogue chooses a treasure parcel and both he and the wizard are eligable to receive another one.

Because no character can gain a level and not be eligable to receive an item directly after that, DM's should not worry about not being able to hand out the rewards at the point they want except to the extent that they have given out too much wealth to a character already, or another DM has fulfilled the requirements. But these issues exist whether or not this system is used or not, any system where multiple DM's are handing out treasure DM's will have to be cognizant of what each player already has before they decide to toss wealth on them[unless its plot specific wealth that is going to be leaving the party]

_____________________________

Now, there are problems in the early game with some players not having anything but their starting gold until they get a gold parcel. But we have or can ameliorate that because our players may not be starting at level 1. If players are starting at level 4, they could simply make a lvl 1 character and then get items as if they had leveled up to 4 on time XP.

They would then get to choose 3 of a lvl n+1. n+2. N+3. n+4, and gold equal to 1 lvl n item and apply that to each level. For instance a character would start like this

Lvl 4 wizard[n+2, Gold, n+3, no treasure]

He would start with a lvl 3 item, gold equal to a lvl 2 item[520] and a lvl 6 item. He would be eligable to receive treasure for lvl 4 immediately and could receive an n+1 item or n+4 item during the next two levels. This is exactly as much wealth as he might have received from leveling from 1 to 4 in any standard DnD game, though we would also have give him the extra 100 starting gold. When he hit lvl 6, if he was running low on gold, the DM could give him a gold parcel worth 1800g, the standard value of a lvl 6 item.

Standard starting wealth would give him a bit more in raw wealth and gold, but would make it harder to assign treasure for levels 4 and 5[lvl 5 item, lvl 4 item, lvl 3 item + lvl 4 item of gold[880]


If this doesn't clear things up, let me know

edit: I hope i am not coming off as pushy, i have a tendency to do that, especially when i drop a word bomb like that one. I just want to explain how i perceive my system to work and why i think its valuable. I actually posted something similar[but with players choosing the entire time rather than DM's choosing and players only choosing if they level up without receiving anything"] in the other thread as well(and in the middle of this one somewhere), so that explanation at the bottom of page 1 might be a bit of a help in understanding just what I am proposing here.
 
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