LEB Discussion Thread '09

[stonegod]

It's no problem. We'll just become a triumvirate. You know, like the ones that kept popping up in Roman history. The ones that ended with one of the people "disposing" of the other two. Like I said, no problems here.

While you three our killing each other off, I'll be here, the real power behind the throne....

 

[stonegod]

Quick kudos for DEFCON1 for making our first non-me edit to the wiki: the Setting page, were he fixed one of my probably many typos (this one was a copy/paste error, at least).

 

[Lord Sessadore]

So 'slapdash' that every updated race except the minotaur took 100% of the MM write-up? Sorry, don't buy it.

What, the whole two other ones? Maybe three? It's not like they've updated a majority of the races by any count. Perhaps those other races haven't been done yet because they are being problematic in playtesting

Also, condolences to the new judges!! Er ... I mean congrats! Yes ... yes, that's what I meant. *shifty eyes*

Seriously though, much appreciated and kudos to you all for taking up the mantle. I have every confidence the three of you (or four with stonegod, I suppose) will do a great job.

 

[ukingsken]

To quote a great scholar and spend some of our newly found judge Daily powers:

So just kind of picking through whats been said so far would this be a fair summary for proposed sources for LEB Character Creation?...

• Player's Handbook, Dungeon Master's Guide, and Monster Manual
• Eberron Players Guide
• Forgotten Realms Players Guide (Races, Classes, Non FR specific Feats)
• Players Handbook 2
• Monster Manual 2 (For Monstrous Races)
• Arcane Power
• Martial Power
• Manual of The Planes
• Adventurers Vault

Now beyond adding or subtracting to that list there are also a couple things I know that were issues of contention in L4W when they were approved there, specifically:

• Double Weapons and Oversized/Brutal weapons in Adventurer's vault (Discussion here.)
• Whether or not damage from the Dark Pact powers in FRPG should be voluntary or involuntary (Discussion here.)
• Whether or not to drop implement/weapon expertise feats from PHB 2 and just fix the broken math that they seem to be a patch for (Discussion here.)

Why not do some good old fashion voting? That way we can get a lot of this stuff out of the way. As I see it things that need voting are:

1. Sources as described above, with a note about revising MM races as they are published in other sources (specifically that once they are revised players are required to convert to the new version or I guess retire the character?).
2. To allow double weapons, noting that we will all observe the intent of the designer as opposed to the written interpretation that allows much nastiness (which means that both ends are not offhand correct?)
3. To drop the math fixing implement feats in favor of just giving them for free as per the L4W discussion (I don't think anyone will be starting below Lvl 4 LS so forgive me for not including your suggestion here).
4. To remove oversized from any playable races (I think Bugbear is the only one left?)
5. To require an agreement between players before Dark Pact powers that drain allied HP can be used.
6. While we're at it we may also vote on the Brigandine armor and fighter at will that were brought up by Vertexx69

I think right now all those things have pretty much exhausted any discussion that's going to happen. If someone else will just check my list to make sure theres nothing else we can do without more discussion we can get to the part where we type large, bolded, red or green letters.

 

[renau1g]

Only thing I'd like to add to that list is perhaps the Dragon magazine articles up to this point? Or are we doing the 3-month waiting thing like L4W, although I guess if that's the case we need to wait 2 more months before proposing anything from the EPG

 

[stonegod]

Only thing I'd like to add to that list is perhaps the Dragon magazine articles up to this point? Or are we doing the 3-month waiting thing like L4W, although I guess if that's the case we need to wait 2 more months before proposing anything from the EPG

I'm not comfortable importing as whole all the Dragon material to this point. I think racial stuff is going to be if you read uk's proposal carefully (so gnolls, minotaurs, and shadar-kai), but the rest will need discussion. As for shadar-kai, we'll need to decide on the Reaper's Touch issues (shadar-kai only, or everyone? See the L4W thread I'm too lazy to link to for details).

As for EPG (and ECG): It falls under the everything published in hardback rule. It applies only this once (at the start of game).

 

[ukingsken]

I think the consensus was that any Dragon articles should be done up in a seperate proposal. That being said if you want to take some initiative *nudge nudge* and write up a proposal including whatever Dragon magazine articles seem pertinent to you we'd all be overjoyed to discuss and judge it in that thread.

Edit: Excepting the MM racial updates, since we need to include the ones already published here (and yes we'd need to discuss reapers touch.)

I only say that because in this thread we're just trying to work out the core stuff and I dont want us getting derailed for a week by discussing Dragon articles when putting them in their own thread would allow the discussions to go on concurrently.

 

[EvolutionKB]

No backstabbing by me...I'll do it the right way...*polymorphs into a socialist half-orc.....*

I love that character, hilarious.

Man that was a couple long pages to wade through. My thoughts on the races discussion: I agree that the Dragon articles take precedence over the ones in MM. If you want one, you gotta use that one, and we'll warn that in the CCG(character creation guide). Until they go hardcover that is...then once that is approved you update change things as they exist there.

Since staff implements are officially two handed now, are we going to allow the exception that small characters can still use them?

Do we still want the waiting time for approved sources? I don't. The purpose of that was for community to playtest the material for brokenness. The CO board on the wizards site finds most of the broken stuff within a day or two. I go there regularly, so if anything raises a red flag I can bring it to attention. The approval thread would give us(or the COers) plenty of time to get that material.


Sources as described above, with a note about revising MM races as they are published in other sources (specifically that once they are revised players are required to convert to the new version or I guess retire the character?).
YES

To allow double weapons, noting that we will all observe the intent of the designer as opposed to the written interpretation that allows much nastiness (which means that both ends are not offhand correct?)
YES

To drop the math fixing implement feats in favor of just giving them for free as per the L4W discussion (I don't think anyone will be starting below Lvl 4 LS so forgive me for not including your suggestion here).
YES

To remove oversized from any playable races (I think Bugbear is the only one left?)
YES

To require an agreement between players before Dark Pact powers that drain allied HP can be used.
YES

While we're at it we may also vote on the Brigandine armor and fighter at will that were brought up by Vertexx69
NO

 

[ukingsken]

Since staff implements are officially two handed now, are we going to allow the exception that small characters can still use them?

I think we most definitely want to continue allowing it. Disallowing it limits player options for no particular reason other then because. Seems a little silly to me that a small character wouldn't just use a slightly smaller staff. With no mechanical brokenness arising from allowing it I'm inclined to say go for it.

Do we still want the waiting time for approved sources? I don't. The purpose of that was for community to playtest the material for brokenness. The CO board on the wizards site finds most of the broken stuff within a day or two. I go there regularly, so if anything raises a red flag I can bring it to attention. The approval thread would give us(or the COers) plenty of time to get that material.

I think we should still have a time limit on when things can be approved, but I agree that 3 months seems to be excessive. Especially here where we have such a dearth of Eberron material we'll want access to any new setting specific material ASAP. How about 2 weeks as a wait time? If the monkeys over at the WOTC boards (which I also read) can't ferret out a problem in that amount of time then the problem doesn't exist, and if one does exist our discussion is likely to take longer then that amount of time anyway.

So without further ado:


Sources as described above, with a note about revising MM races as they are published in other sources (specifically that once they are revised players are required to convert to the new version or I guess retire the character?).
YES

To allow double weapons, noting that we will all observe the intent of the designer as opposed to the written interpretation that allows much nastiness (which means that both ends are not offhand correct?)
YES

To drop the math fixing implement feats in favor of just giving them for free as per the L4W discussion (I don't think anyone will be starting below Lvl 4 LS so forgive me for not including your suggestion here).
YES

To remove oversized from any playable races (I think Bugbear is the only one left?)
YES

To require an agreement between players before Dark Pact powers that drain allied HP can be used.
YES

While we're at it we may also vote on the Brigandine armor and fighter at will that were brought up by Vertexx69
NO

 

[TwoHeadsBarking]

Ooh, I get to vote. How exciting.

Yes, yes to only one end being off-hand, yes, yes (sorry bugbears), yes, no, but I'd be willing to revisit the last one.

I also think a shorter approval period would be nice. Especially since it would allow the psion to come in sooner, and I seem to recall that psionics actually fit in Eberron.