LEB Discussion Thread '09

[elecgraystone]

I was asking why it was so much better for a caster?
Feat chains work JUST as well for weapon attacks. Wintertouched, lasting cold and a cold weapon isn't good for a rogue? [or anyone that wants a +2 to hit] How is making EVERY attack an attack you can use sneak attack on any different than a sorcerer or someone with the House Lyrandar mark getting to use there powers all the time? None IMO.

There are likely other reasons, but it appears the designers believe changing all your abilities to your favored element type is valued by the designers as a costly ability (as all the known examples of letting it happen are ED properties).

I'm sorry but I don't see that. No where does it say you don't get powers and in fact several places you have weapons that are clearly implements that have powers. It seems to me that their intention it the exact opposite of that you think it is. It lists the passive bonuses you gain and not the active ones [powers] in #16. I can't see that it's their intent that the holy avenger can't use it's daily power to boost defenses it a cleric used an implement spell through it.

Also, if you use the example as an exclusive list, then the avenger CAN'T be used as a holy symbol. You get that ability as a SPECIAL and that's not listed is it? So when they try to use it as one, it loses the ability.

My reading seems to be consistent with what has been published. There is still some debate of the power issue on the WotC boards as well, I'll add, so it isn't as clear as it should be.

I would also say my reading is 100% consistent with what has been published. Nothing says you don't get powers and there are several implement weapons with powers. It's also true there is a heated debate on the WOTC boards. If it was truly their intent that the sorcerer weapons were an exception, they dropped the ball explaining that. Look at how many people agree with me.

 

[stonegod]

I was asking why it was so much better for a caster?
Feat chains work JUST as well for weapon attacks. Wintertouched, lasting cold and a cold weapon isn't good for a rogue? [or anyone that wants a +2 to hit] How is making EVERY attack an attack you can use sneak attack on any different than a sorcerer or someone with the House Lyrandar mark getting to use there powers all the time? None IMO.

Yes, the winterfrost combo can be done w/ melee characters. My argument was that the only abilities to clearly grant a guaranteed favored elemental attack for the arcane types were Epic Level. To return your argument you use below, look to see how many posters agree the Wintertouched-Frost Weapon combo is "overpowered" or "cheesy"; similar arguments hold for the use any arcane power with any element you want combo as well.

I'm sorry but I don't see that. No where does it say you don't get powers and in fact several places you have weapons that are clearly implements that have powers.

We'll have to disagree here (which is the source of the disagreement on the boards). It seems clear to me the wording is exhaustive ("What benefits do you get? You get ...") whereas you do not. My counter to this line of reasoning is if the list is not exhaustive, then it seems one would always get everything in the item description as you could always say "well, they say it doesn't get it...".

Also, if you use the example as an exclusive list, then the avenger CAN'T be used as a holy symbol. You get that ability as a SPECIAL and that's not listed is it? So when they try to use it as one, it loses the ability.

Indeed, and this is the true problem: WotC has not been very clear on the weaplement issue. As far as the Holy Avenger go, I think a reading for the exception-based design would indicate that an Avenger is an exception due to its special, not the rule.

If it was truly their intent that the sorcerer weapons were an exception, they dropped the ball explaining that. Look at how many people agree with me.

On this we can agree (that WotC is unclear). As stated, there are several that agree with my side as well.

In any case, I stand by my reading (as you stand by yours). The issue will be how does LEB treat it officially. Likely it will take a proposal to make it official one way or the other.

 

[CaBaNa]

Proposal Created, Here.

Let's have a chat about it, and put it to a vote.

 

[Theroc]

Hm... I don't want to be a pest, but Shanairra has one approval and still needs one more.

Is it just a really busy period for the judges lately? (Which reminds me, how many judges does LEB have? I know Stonegod is one, and am pretty sure Renau1g is one, but who are the others?)

 

[TwoHeadsBarking]

The other active judges are me and EvolutionKB. So, there's only four of us, which is barely enough. Also, a number of us are kept very busy by L4W (both ren and I are DMing three adventures over there).

Regardless, I'll get to your character later today.

 

[Theroc]

The other active judges are me and EvolutionKB. So, there's only four of us, which is barely enough. Also, a number of us are kept very busy by L4W (both ren and I are DMing three adventures over there).

Regardless, I'll get to your character later today.

Much appreciated, and no real rush, just wanted to make sure Shanairra wasn't forgotten. After all, she's the only one in the inn at the moment, AFAIK.

 

[renau1g]

Lonely, I'm Mr. Mrs. Lonely

 

[CaBaNa]

Theroc, if THB doesn't get to it by later tonight, I'll see what I can do to give it a look over. That is, if the other approver is a judge...

Officially stating I've dropped the Human Garrote Wielding Vampire Assassin build... It was just proving to be too ineffective, especially with the large number of other strikers around.

So I made a Lyrander Wizard.

I'll have him posted up by later tonight!

 

[renau1g]

I've already approved Theroc's guy, so you're fine to look it over.

 

[elecgraystone]

Officially stating I've dropped the Human Garrote Wielding Vampire Assassin build... It was just proving to be too ineffective, especially with the large number of other strikers around.

That's a shame. I was curious to see how it turned out and how he well he'd work out. Now if you'd have swapped out human assassin for bugbear brutal rogue, I think the effectivness would be much higher.