Legends and Lore - Maintaining the Machine

[pemerton]

Monte seems to be suggesting that no rules set can be 100% complete, so better to decide ahead of time which situations work better with fixed rules, and which situations work better in the hands of the GM, then design the system accordingly.

I really don't mind there being hundreds of little conditional rules for me to use if I need them.

Another way of going is to reduce the "fictional minutiae" of the rules, and to set more high level action resolution mechanics (a la skill challenges, HeroWars/Quest extended contests, etc).

Then the question of whether something is feasible or not ("Can I knock down the door with my mace?") can be settled by genre/verisimilitude considerations without the need to invoke any mechanics - and different groups could either allocate this authority to the GM, or allow it to be a matter of whole-group consensus - and the actual action resolution can then be adjudicated by the GM arbitrating which particular PC ability can be brought to bear to generate the requisite number of successes to knock down the door (or whatever else that it is that the player wants his/her PC to achieve).

 

[DEFCON 1]

It should not be a stretch that magic isn't infinitely flexible.

No... however, when magical effects are presented as possible in various forms, it also should not be a stretch that the crafters would take the time to find the most useful and best methods for presenting those effects. And those methods that were less efficient or more unwieldy would eventually just fall away.

If a person wanted to fly... traditionally there were potions of flight, there were scrolls of flight, there were wands that gave flight, there were boots of flight, carpets of flight, rings of flight, cloaks of flight, wings of flight, brooms of flight etc. etc. So obviously, artificers had discovered the methods of how to put the ability of flight into various magical forms. At some point... one or two of those methods would have been determined to be the fastest, cheapest, most popular, and most effective way to give people the power of flight. And thus... they would become the standards with which it could be attained, while the other methods would fall into eventual obscurity. And on top of that... if flight was so ubiquitous a magical effect that artificers over the years had put it into all of those different objects... at some point other objects would be tried, probably ones which would again fall into "more effective".

Now yes... the argument about how magical any given world is would determine exactly how many different forms it would take... but if we are talking the typical D&D fantasy world... the one where the magic items found within the Player's Handbook and Adventurer's Vaults are assumed to be real and accessible items to PCs, both in retrieval and crafting... to think that the artificers would not figure out how to make these items better, cheaper, and more useful is an attempt to maintain the tropes of classical D&D magic while not acknowledging the science, business, and evolution of it. Especially in a world like Eberron, where magic is assumed in the setting to be on par with technology. To think that with the thousands of years they've had in magical development that no one has bothered to figure out a way to take the healing power out of a potion and put it into another form that could be instantly absorbed in the middle of combat without needing to actually drink something... is to ignore where magic would actually be useful and also quite frankly, economics and supply and demand.

 

[Stormonu]

If a person wanted to fly... traditionally there were potions of flight, there were scrolls of flight, there were wands that gave flight, there were boots of flight, carpets of flight, rings of flight, cloaks of flight, wings of flight, brooms of flight etc. etc. So obviously, artificers had discovered the methods of how to put the ability of flight into various magical forms. At some point... one or two of those methods would have been determined to be the fastest, cheapest, most popular, and most effective way to give people the power of flight. And thus... they would become the standards with which it could be attained, while the other methods would fall into eventual obscurity. And on top of that... if flight was so ubiquitous a magical effect that artificers over the years had put it into all of those different objects... at some point other objects would be tried, probably ones which would again fall into "more effective".

Of course, this assumes that wizards share their secrets and formulas of concocting these items with others. However, folks have consistently shown that when they have an advantage (including the ability to make something for money that others can't reproduce), they are often reluctant to reveal those secrets. If you doubt me, go ask for the code for MS Windows.

 

[LurkAway]

You've already got the potion and the idea of putting it in a container to drink in the field. You've also got leather flasks and metal bottles. Is it such a stretch to realize, "If I put this flask inside my helmet and pull the cork out with my teeth, I won't have to drop my sword and shield to fish it out?" That's an innovation that a single person could devise, requiring neither special knowledge nor lots of money to attempt (assuming you're smart enough to fine-tune your design with flasks of water before taking it into battle).

An idea that looks good on paper (or on an Enworld post) can turn out to be an absolute catastrophic failure in practice, and I'm confident a potion helmet falls into that category. The whole process of custom blacksmithing armor and testing that its battle ready is going to take a while and some money. One big problem is that rubber tubing and plastic tubing and reliable sealents were not invented yet -- is your adventurer going to invent those too? This isn't Star Trek ('oh if I just decouple the rubber tree from the dilethium I should be able to have a working prototype by the end of the day'). I can't even envision a clunky contraption that allows you to pop a cork out with your teeth. How do you think you'd feel in an oversized helmet working your lips around a cork in your face while a giant is trying to whack you with a giant baseball bat? What happens if you build the stupid thing and you don't find any more healing potions at the local dungeon treasure dispenser/vending machine?

Your sig is about "realism = internal consistency". In my game, "internal consistency" means:
1) adventuring is not a common "career" -- there are not enough adventurers out there to support a fully-fledged adventuring cottage industry, the market is just too small
2) the tiny adventuring customer base is too unreliable -- customers die a lot, move around a lot = lack of repeat business and long term customers, and once the local dungeon is cleared out, you have to hope for a new local threat to the town!
3) adventurers cannot rely on a steady reliable influx of magic items on demand, they're scavengers and treasure-hunters, not ordering pizza
4) it is a world without modern sensibilities, and magic has its own arbitrary laws that we don't understand
5) it is a world where combat is a serious and deadly, and a wonky helmet can get you killed. Period.
6) overall, if you weigh the pros and cons of the potion helmet, the obvious common sense is to drink your potion before or after battle
7) the 4e 'gamist' encounter design (assuming buffs during combat instead of before/after) does not make any of the above less true

And the less common healing potions are, the fewer "innovations" of this type one is likely to see.

The more common healing potions (and especially adventuring), the closer you get to a cottage industry springing up around adventuring and magic items, as I parodied in post #35.

yes... the argument about how magical any given world is would determine exactly how many different forms it would take... but if we are talking the typical D&D fantasy world... the one where the magic items found within the Player's Handbook and Adventurer's Vaults are assumed to be real and accessible items to PCs, both in retrieval and crafting... to think that the artificers would not figure out how to make these items better, cheaper, and more useful is an attempt to maintain the tropes of classical D&D magic while not acknowledging the science, business, and evolution of it.

If magic could be engineered to be so flexible, then spells would be equally flexible. Every wizard would be like Green Lantern, able to weave strands of magic to create anything he has the intelligence to imagine and the willpower to create. But that's not the case. There is some arbitrary reason why spells are 'pre-programmed' into individual discrete effects. Those arbitrary magic laws apply to magic items as well, just for different arcane reasons probably involving vessels and attunement.

 

[DEFCON 1]

Of course, this assumes that wizards share their secrets and formulas of concocting these items with others. However, folks have consistently shown that when they have an advantage (including the ability to make something for money that others can't reproduce), they are often reluctant to reveal those secrets. If you doubt me, go ask for the code for MS Windows.

You don't need a wizard to share secrets... you need competitors who try to get into the market by creating and competing against the wizard. As competition grows... both the original wizard and the competitors all try and make their stuff better over time. I mean come on, if you're going to use Microsoft as an example... let's see the evolution of their operating system in just 30 years... from MS-Dos to where Windows stands now. And a lot of that evolution was in direct response to trying to outdo Commodore, the Mac OS, LINUX coming on the scene, etc. Microsoft doing what they can to stay ahead of the competition and retain market share. Magic is exactly the same thing... it would not stay still. It would evolve. It would get better.

So let's take alchemy. Perhaps when it first came about, you only had a few magical effects possible, it had to be held in suspension in specially-created magical crystal vials, the dosage you had to drink was upwards of a cup or two, and duration of which they lasted was only for a short period of time.

Over time (especially if we're talking hundreds of years of magical research... which D&D makes a point to have always said it was possible to create 'new magic') new magical effects would be created to be put into potion form. And the potency of the magic would be increased so that you wouldn't need to drink as much (eventually getting down to half-a-cup, then a tablespoon, then a teaspoon). The duration would continue to get longer and longer. And eventually the container you stored a potion in could be changed to perhaps non-crystal so that it would be less prone to break. And then finally... over the centuries alchemists would figure out how to do contact potions (just like some poisons are), or potions in gaseous form that could be inhaled. Or potions in pill form for easier carrying.

You know... pretty much like the evolution of our pharmaceutical companies have done over the years. Alchemy and pharmaceuticals... pretty much one and the same. To deny that evolution is to wash your hands of the whole "wizards can make new magic through research" schtick that D&D has always had in the game.

 

[LurkAway]

Alchemy and pharmaceuticals... pretty much one and the same. To deny that evolution is to wash your hands of the whole "wizards can make new magic through research" schtick that D&D has always had in the game.

Evolution is not a definite linear growth. A true evolution in alchemy probably requires a kind of industrial revolution. That may have happened an alternate fantasy universe or will happen in a fantasy future, but not in a traditional stagnate D&D PoL setting. Perhaps it's because life in a D&D realm is inherently unsafe and unstable. With so many monsters and demons trying to eat, murder, conquer and enslave people, it would be a wonder if any stable empire could form to support an intellectual arcane renaissance. Wizards hide in their towers and guard their secrets to maintain an advantage for their own security and private ambitions; they don't go to Magic Conventions, share the latest research papers, and hand each other Nobel Arcane Prizes. And I believe 4E suggests that magic reached a peak in an ancient human empire and then collapsed into a dark age, which may explain why so much magic got nerfed instead of evolving relative to the mundane world. Alchemy in a fantasy medieval age and pharmaceuticals in the modern age are not necessarily the same at all, due to completely different underlying conditions.

 

[Glade Riven]

Yeah, but Eberron is filled with Great Houses that enforce their monopolies on the "good stuff." Monopolies find it cheaper and easier to use thuggitry (either their own thugs or government thugs) to knock out the competition rather than by innovating. To top it off, 98% of the people in fantasy worlds are outright dirt poor. A group of adventurers comes through Smallville with heavy purses, they'll get price gouged and everyone in town can feed their families for a year (although most people not used to handling large sums of money will blow it on stupid stuff). A local apothicary may be all there is for medical treatment, usually to heal injuries from accidents or burn out some bad humors. Rich NPCs hire their own wizards and clerics, with magical items made on a commission basis (except Eberron, but that was covered).

I see that there are two divergent paths - are the players trying to break the rules, or are they trying to do something outside of the rules? I don't let players break the rules (if I can help it). I do let they try something outside the rules, usually by associating a skill check or a CMB roll (system depending).

 

[DEFCON 1]

Yeah, but Eberron is filled with Great Houses that enforce their monopolies on the "good stuff." Monopolies find it cheaper and easier to use thuggitry (either their own thugs or government thugs) to knock out the competition rather than by innovating.

Except that within Eberron's dragonmarked houses there *IS* competition... within the houses themselves. House Cannith especially has three separate factions each trying to gain the utmost control of the House... and those three house leaders keep progressing their own research (as well as sending adventurers out to find new and ancient stuff for them) to do so.

So while potions exist in Eberron in the form they do because that's how the potion concept has been given rules in the base D&D game... in truth, in the Eberron world especially, House Jorasco would have streamlined the 'healing potion' concept to be much more efficient. Especially considering there was just a 100 year war, and goodness knows the 5 Nations would have spent money hand over fist to get faster, stronger and more healing for their combatants. The war machine drives business and technology in many new ways.

 

[Dausuul]

Forgive me, moderators, for I have sinned.

I have turned a serious, interesting thread about the tension between DM judgement and the rules into an argument about drinking potions from beer hats.

And even when the consequences of my crime became clear to me, I persisted in arguing the point.

May Gygax have mercy on my dice.

 

[Stormonu]

May Gygax have mercy on my dice.

You are hearby required to repeat three Hail Arnesons and concoct a Gygaxian Holy Water Sprinkler, my son.