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Legends and Lore: Modular Madness

Why not?

To run 3e without minis you have to ignore part of the combat rules. Why can't you do the same in 4e?

There are just too many minor movements and forced movements embedded into the system for me to keep it straight. While 3e (particularly 3.5e) loses something without the grid, 4e combat simply loses much more.

Truth is, if the rest of the system had wowed me, I would probably have made the effort to do as you suggest. It didn't, though, so I never got to that point.

Also, IIRC, some people _are_ playing 4e without minis. There's been several threads with reports that it works quite well!

Indeed, I have no doubt it's possible. That's why I made sure to say I can't do so.
 

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I'm highly critical of 4e...

Even failed systems like skill challenges stand head and shoulders above 3.x, which had no such systems.

4e isn't flawed.

You're highly critical of it, it has entire systems in it that fail, but it *isn't* flawed. Right.

I think we can all see where you are coming from now. Thank you for clarifying.

Folks, it is okay to be a fan of something, but there's a point when opinions become intractable, and discussion becomes fruitless. People beating each other when nobody's willing to move is where edition warring comes from. I urge you to learn to identify the signs, and walk away when you see them.
 

Oh, sorry, I hadn't seen this yet....

I'm sorry that your point of view runs contrary to reality?


You are not the arbiter of reality. Please stop speaking as if you were.


No, actually, you can't.


Do you play in his game? No? Then you don't get to say what happened at his table. You are free to doubt what he says, but you are now calling him a liar, when you have no evidence. This is rude, and this form of argument will not be tolerated any further.

I hope I make myself clear - your partisanship is leading you to be insulting and personal. Back it down several notches, please.

Or don't. Your call. But you have been warned.
 


Catostrophic I dont think umbran warned you for arguing in favor of 4e or stating your opinions about the rules ( or referencing "facts"). You were warned because your characterization of those who disagrer with you is insulting and you claim your opinions as objective truth. I think if you had been in the other camp and defended 3e that way you would have received the same warning. You were asked to tone it down, not to change your stance.
 

Catastrophic there is a big difference between your posts ( though i think him saying your flat wrong was potentially crossing the line). I suggest you re-read what you've written. Much of it is plainly insulting and hostile. I think the warning was warranted and should heed it. No point getting banned over edition wars.
 

4e has plenty of defenders and most dont get banned. I've had lots of strong disagreements with dannager over 4e. He takes a very clear stand and asserts his point of view forcefully but is polite . Neither of have been warned during these discussions because we remained civil.
 

I first got interested in 4E because of some of the wild things said by its critics. I found their criticism without merit.

Nothing has made me doubt the usefulness of 4E nearly as much as some of the wild things said in its defense.
 

Could feats provide breadth but not depth by, for example, bringing new dimensions of the game into play? KM's post #20 is one way of thinking about this. A feat that let's you eg spend a HS, or an AP, or whatever, to jump a chasm without having to make a d20 roll is another.

Yes. But that is not what I took Mearls to say here. Those are big things. It sounded to me like he was talking about feats that give you +1 to Athletic checks to jump--i.e. not worth fooling with.

In fact, it sounded to me like doing the same things with feats and skills that were done with magic items. Since one of the things I'd want to change in a new edition is putting magic items back into a more salient spot, I hardly want to move the opposite direction on feats and skills. Now, if the only way to include feats is to make them that small, then that says something too. It says to me simply get rid of them altogether. :)

Part of the complexity in a game is reasonable. Not infrequently, part of it is not so reasonable. (People of good will can draw the lines in different places, of course.) But as a general rule of thumb, I think in a game that is trying to cover a lot of mechanical and conceptual ground, like D&D, if you want to cut down on complexity you don't include lots of little fiddly bits. You have some medium to bigger parts, and a few key little fiddly bits where they really make sense and don't cost much complexity (e.g. weapon lists). Then if you want to be modular, you have a bunch of optional medium to bigger fiddly parts, with again a few key little fiddly ones.

If you don't mind complexity, you can include as many little fiddly bits as you want. If you want complexity and simulation, you probably will. If the editor doesn't restrain you, you'll end up with Phoenix Command. :)
 
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I first got interested in 4E because of some of the wild things said by its critics. I found their criticism without merit.

Nothing has made me doubt the usefulness of 4E nearly as much as some of the wild things said in its defense.
Can't give XP, but this comment channels H.L. Mencken very well.
 

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