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Legends and Lore - Nod To Realism

Perhaps, but the fact that an insult (even a magical-powered one) affects a dim-witted skeleton is adding insult to injury IMO. The classic mythologies about bards had them enchant humans and humanoids, not animated bags of bones. It's not cinematic either -- a scene like that would evoke sniggers from the audience.

To be fair, the really classic myths have Orpheus playing a music so charming that even sticks and stones refused to hit him. What's magical and what's not depends on the setting, and the problem is that certain powers force certain setting and narrative elements that individual players may not like. Even then I'd argue that it does in a less heavy handed manner than previous editions, which had easy ways to measure or detect rules elements like, for example, alignment or had the default cosmology directly built into many spells.

The thing it, people was used to that weirdness for 30 years, and when they saw it changed to a different kind of weirdness many freaked out.
 

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To be fair, the really classic myths have Orpheus playing a music so charming that even sticks and stones refused to hit him.
To be possibly even more fair, Orpheus is probably the equivalent of Epic and what level can a bard take Vicious Mockery? Also, myths have a certain mythical dream quality that is rarely duplicated in D&D and certainly not with internal consistency.
 

Actually, I did have a bit of a problem with Extraordinary Abilities as well.
A "bit of a problem"? My current Pathfinder PC has 3 EX abilities; she can turn the surrounding air into an invisible barrier that protects her as well as plate armor, see and hear at a distance, including around corners, as per the clairvoyance and clairaudinece spells, via air currents, and, 2/day, create a terrifically damaging burst of thunder --13d6-- in an area, at range, presumably by clapping her dainty hands together.

None of these abilities are magical. They don't detect as magic, function perfectly well in an anti-magic field, etc. They're as mundane as a rogue jumping out of the way of danger...

... and yet, CaGI is more problematic, and indicative of a harmful move away from be logical, consistent, "associated", or whatever, mechanics?

And virtually no power source should be handing out teleport at low levels.
Why is teleporting roughly as far as someone can long jump troubling, other than D&D traditionally reserves this ability for 7th-level and above casters, who can then teleport much farther than a person can jump, and then continental/planar distances, respectively.

It's a totally arbitrary approach to scaling.

Just like virtually no power source should be handing out fly or invisibility at low levels.
AD&D handed invisibility out to 3rd level M-U's, and it lasted all day, so long as the caster didn't attack anything.

I just have an issue with things like the Original Come and Get It that came straight out of acquiring aggro out of an MMORPG.
And hit points came out of an old naval battle board/war game (unless that anecdote is untrue...).

Supernatural taunting isn't martial.
No, it isn't. But it seems to me much closer to mythology and folklore... and farther away from the more science fiction-influenced, post D&D-era fantasy fiction whose "fantastic bits" often read like mythology written by, and for, engineers and systems architects.
 

A "bit of a problem"? My current Pathfinder PC has 3 EX abilities; she can turn the surrounding air into an invisible barrier that protects her as well as plate armor, see and hear at a distance, including around corners, as per the clairvoyance and clairaudinece spells, via air currents, and, 2/day, create a terrifically damaging burst of thunder --13d6-- in an area, at range, presumably by clapping her dainty hands together.

None of these abilities are magical. They don't detect as magic, function perfectly well in an anti-magic field, etc. They're as mundane as a rogue jumping out of the way of danger...

Except that they shouldn't be mundane.

Just because someone one day farted in the elevator and suddenly shouted "Eureka. We can give supernatural abilities to normal PCs and consider them typical and status quo." doesn't mean that this is what should happen.

The definition of the word supernatural is "outside of natural".

Anything natural should be considered normal. It should be the ruler by which outside of normal abilities should be measured.


There's nothing wrong with having extraordinary abilities, but those abilites should be limited to extraordinary sources of power.

D&D shouldn't be GURPS where there is a smorgasborg of abilities. I'll take a little teleport, an invisible magical protective force field, maybe a hop over to the Feywild for a while, ooh a greatsword would be nice.

Why is teleporting roughly as far as someone can long jump troubling, other than D&D traditionally reserves this ability for 7th-level and above casters, who can then teleport much farther than a person can jump, and then continental/planar distances, respectively.

It's a totally arbitrary approach to scaling.

Not arbitrary at all. Teleporting means that one can move without traveling through intervening spaces where effects and creatures can interfer.

That's a lot more potent than even shifting and this is totally obvious. Even shifting is a fairly potent ability. Try to move 15 feet past a foe in a real fight without him getting a chance to clock you along the way. It doesn't happen, hence, it is implausible. Just because some game designer thought it would be cool to have half of the PCs teleporting by level 4 doesn't mean it's a good idea from a game balance and power perspective.

Crawl before you walk, walk before you run, run before you leap.

Move before you shift, shift before you fly, fly before you teleport.

Movement powers should be scaled. Teleporting, even 25 feet is a huge advantage for a player. Do I need Athletics? Nope. I'll just teleport up. Do I need shift? Nope. I'll just teleport past. Do I need a rope to get across that ravine. Nope.

Just because people bought into the 4E "teleport is no big deal" line doesn't make it any less useful or potent.

AD&D handed invisibility out to 3rd level M-U's, and it lasted all day, so long as the caster didn't attack anything.

And now, there's very little magic that will last more than 5 minutes shy of a lengthy ritual.

Everyone is a low level hedge wizard, regardless of power source.

Magic doesn't exist anymore because everything is magic.

"Everyone can be super! And when everyone's super, [laughs maniacally] no-one will be."


There is more difference between roles these days in many cases then there is between power sources.

No, it isn't. But it seems to me much closer to mythology and folklore... and farther away from the more science fiction-influenced, post D&D-era fantasy fiction whose "fantastic bits" often read like mythology written by, and for, engineers and systems architects.

You mean like the invisible barrier that you mentioned for your Pathfinder PC where invisible barriers are more of a science fiction / comic book force field concept than it is anything out of mythology and folklore.

You appear to want your cake and eat it too. Course, a lot of people are that way. Heaven forbid that the game have a power source that is just the muscles and sinews of the PC and not wierd esoteric supernatural abilities.

Everyone wants to be a fricking mutant.
 


To be possibly even more fair, Orpheus is probably the equivalent of Epic and what level can a bard take Vicious Mockery? Also, myths have a certain mythical dream quality that is rarely duplicated in D&D and certainly not with internal consistency.

Literature in general is hard to reconcile with what happens at the table. Anyway, it's true that Orpheus as described enters the realm of epic, but what I tried to add to the conversation is, how much as a supernatural thing did ancient greeks or romans saw that tale? It was like a fairy tale, or like John McClane crashing a car into a helicopter? We can roll our eyes at the shenanigans in Die Hard, but usually we don't think that McCalne did cast a Crash Car Into Helicopter spell, just made a stupidly high Drive check.

Some cultures think everything has a spirit. If rocks and sticks have spirits then is conceivable that a nonmagical song can move them to tears, even if the singer has to perform extremely well to reach a literally rock hard heart. In such a world, insulting skeletons to death is plausible; in the settings built around the 2e-3e framework that most people is used to, where nonmagical abilities normally were enhanced versions of real world abilities, that skill is absurd. These settings have also the advantage of being easily explainable as "like our world, just with wizards and dragons", while the 4e default is more complex, but in my opinion not less valid.
 

Well 4E did change the genre from fantasy to supers so why wouldn't everyone want to be a mutant?

Not being a mutant in 4E is like playing Jimmy Olsen in DC Heroes game.

Not being a mutant is 4E is like playing BATMAN in DC Heroes game.

See? Martial guy. No superpowers, that's what me and a lot of other people expect from martial characters.
 



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