Legends and Lore - Nod To Realism

[D'karr]

Okay, technically Bards in PHB 2 cast spells and thus Vicious Mockery is an actual spell. Spells, as far as I can tell, are a specific thing in 4e with a formula (which can be written in a spellbook, at least in the description of spells for the Wizard). I'm going to go ahead and say this is your interpretation of the rules for Bards... but not necessarily the default for the game, or even a correct one.

Actually this would seem to be more like your interpretation for spells, as Bards do not require books and formula or to write spells in books.

Sorcerers, also cast "spells" and none of their spells fit that description either.

 

[Nemesis Destiny]

Yes, those things are some of the few cases where the rules support some sort of flavor in 4E, but they are far less than in previous editions. And exactly this "less" is the problem.

I disagree with that statement. There have been all kinds of cases in previous editions where loopholes and strange immersion-breaking things happened, to say nothing of games full of bad DM judgment calls. No ruleset (or DM for that matter) is going to be perfect.

In the end, for you flavour is less important in 4e, for others, not so much, but it doesn't mean we place any less value on the flavour of a power. You apparently do, but that is neither here nor there.

 

[Derren]

I disagree with that statement. There have been all kinds of cases in previous editions where loopholes and strange immersion-breaking things happened, to say nothing of games full of bad DM judgment calls. No ruleset (or DM for that matter) is going to be perfect.

There is a difference between players finding loopholes and the designers not even caring.
And the instant you say "Just change the flavor to make the rules work for you", and that is the gist of what you argue here, you place less value on flavor than on rules.

 

[Nemesis Destiny]

There is a difference between players finding loopholes and the designers not even caring.

Pure hyperbole. You're not even trying anymore - just slinging mud.

And the instant you say "Just change the flavor to make the rules work for you", and that is the gist of what you argue here, you place less value on flavor than on rules.

No. That may be what it means to YOU, but I am a separate thinking entity and I can make up my own mind, thanks. As I said, I do not agree with your assessment.

 

[Balesir]

Okay, technically Bards in PHB 2 cast spells and thus Vicious Mockery is an actual spell. Spells, as far as I can tell, are a specific thing in 4e with a formula (which can be written in a spellbook, at least in the description of spells for the Wizard). I'm going to go ahead and say this is your interpretation of the rules for Bards... but not necessarily the default for the game, or even a correct one.

If you want to apply additional strictures that aren't there in order not to be able to have a system work, knock yourself out. The rules say the flavour can be altered to suit those at the table, and that is a methodology that works. If you want to keep doing something else while complaining that it doesn't work, there's not much I can do to help.

When all clothes fit all occasions (Ranged 10, single target, CHA v WILL; on a hit, 1d6 + CHA mod -2 to hit rolls even against skelettons) yes, it doesn't matter.

All clothes conform to certain parameters, even though they differ in colour, size and a myriad details of style. If you want to wear a tight, lime green corset and pink stockings you are free to, but don't complain to me that you don't feel comfortable in public.

More seriously, clothes have an effect on those we deal with socially or professionally. The parameters of those effects fall within a pretty predictable range; if our mode of dress caused someone to drive a car directly at us, we would be surprised (I'm guessing). The same is true of powers in the 4E paradigm. Various methods and details of technique are applied, but the general nature of the effect they cause is quite predictable. It's not certain, note - die rolls are involved both to "hit" and to determine "damage" - but it generally lies within fairly well understood bounds.

 

[Derren]

Pure hyperbole. You're not even trying anymore - just slinging mud.

Pure hyperbole. You're not even trying anymore - just slinging mud.

 

[Imaro]

Does the power say that it WILL NOT affect any objects in the burst? No it doesn't. So the DM can decide what the power does outside of that narrow interpretation.

For example the DM can easily decide that he'd like to have the room catch on fire because there are combustibles in the area. The power has a keyword of Fire, after all. And the rules do provide some guidance on how to handle attacking objects with powers.

And whose right if the player says... "No, I took Fireball because it says it only targets creatures, not objects? See you're argument is basically boiling down to DM fiat can solve any problem...Hmmm, ok.

In my case, I know which one provides more flexibility, the one that puts the adjudication in the hands of the person that knows that table best, the DM.

Until the desires of the DM and the desires of the player casting fireball are at odds.

 

[Derren]

More seriously, clothes have an effect on those we deal with socially or professionally.

Sure, but as far as 4E is concerned it only matters that you wear shoes, trousers and a shirt (Ranged 10, single target, CHA v WILL; on a hit, 1d6 + CHA mod -2 to hit rolls).
What color and style the clothes have or if they fit together doesn't matter (Mockery? Lazer from instrument? Any other flavor?)

 

[Nemesis Destiny]

And whose right if the player says... "No, I took Fireball because it says it only targets creatures, not objects? See you're argument is basically boiling down to DM fiat can solve any problem...Hmmm, ok.




Until the desires of the DM and the desires of the player casting fireball are at odds.

What the DM says goes, just like always.

 

[Derren]

What the DM says goes, just like always.

Bad for the player who followed your advice and ignored flavor text because its mallable. What when the then just says "In that case its not a fireball but but several fire spirits who seek out the enemies in that area without touching anything"?