D&D 5E Legends and Lore October 22nd

On another note, here is the kind of "Queue the Benny Hill Theme Music" Strategic Power-Play hijinks that are totally destructive to the kind of game I'm interested in running these days:

From memory (this was several years ago): Phantom Steed + Fabricate tons of balls of (soon to be burning when the flying druid fire elemental and summoned fire elementals sets them alight) pitch in crafted Bags of Holding + Group of PCs flying sorties over a horde of trolls and their goblin minions in their dry, gaseous peat bog domain (and then rinsing and repeating a similar, yet slightly tweaked, power-play 3 more times in the next 5 months). I'm sure plenty of folks will read that and go OH YEAH. But at this point in my gaming life I just go...yeah. Its a legitimate playstyle (and god knows I'm very familiar with it and have played it for years upon years). Its just not what I'm interested in anymore.

If that Strategic Power-Play was available (and there weren't tools that specifically promote and resolve the conflict the way we did), I guarantee the thematic, climactic and tactical awesomeness of my above Barbarian Horde overwhelming a Settlement scenario would not have been realized and the Benny Hill music would have been queued.
 

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pemerton

Legend
[MENTION=6696971]Manbearcat[/MENTION], while I agree that it is a legitimate playstyle, I do share your dislike of it. I've never thought of it before in "Benny Hill" terms - in practice, I have found the sort of play you are talking about soaks up a huge amount of time in preparation, which is more ponderous than light-hearted and rompy!
 

Ratskinner

Adventurer
On another note, here is the kind of "Queue the Benny Hill Theme Music" Strategic Power-Play hijinks that are totally destructive to the kind of game I'm interested in running these days:
<snippage>
If that Strategic Power-Play was available (and there weren't tools that specifically promote and resolve the conflict the way we did), I guarantee the thematic, climactic and tactical awesomeness of my above Barbarian Horde overwhelming a Settlement scenario would not have been realized and the Benny Hill music would have been queued.

@Manbearcat , while I agree that it is a legitimate playstyle, I do share your dislike of it. I've never thought of it before in "Benny Hill" terms - in practice, I have found the sort of play you are talking about soaks up a huge amount of time in preparation, which is more ponderous than light-hearted and rompy!

I tend to feel similarly. Its why I prefer faster, simpler systems nowadays, keep the story moving, easy to adapt on the fly. Although, if the players want to spend their time plotting such things, I tend to feel that's their prerogative over any story I might have planned.

One interesting note. I currently game with some old-schoolers, and we were talking about this kind of thing a few months back. Resoundingly, they claimed to love good story, but rejected the idea of planning a story-arc or adventure. They would rather the DM plan a "dungeon" as a mostly static partially interactive puzzle. If any bigger "story" happens, they like it to occur "organically" as they term it. Recurring NPCs should be accidental survivors, in their minds. Whether that's a broader difference in old-school vs. new-school, I dunno.
 

GameDoc

Explorer
One interesting note. I currently game with some old-schoolers, and we were talking about this kind of thing a few months back. Resoundingly, they claimed to love good story, but rejected the idea of planning a story-arc or adventure. They would rather the DM plan a "dungeon" as a mostly static partially interactive puzzle. If any bigger "story" happens, they like it to occur "organically" as they term it. Recurring NPCs should be accidental survivors, in their minds. Whether that's a broader difference in old-school vs. new-school, I dunno.

I think that's totally Old School (and totally cool).

Somewhere along the way, D&D has evolved to codify things that used to happen organically. The only thing that linked the different adventures in a lot of old school campaigns were the involvement of the same PCs, particularly if the DM was stringing together published modules. Recurrent NPCs, random house rules, even the expanded campaign setting itself would emerge from the attemp to create continuity on the fly by both DM and players.

That's not a criticism of New School. Both styles are valid and have their pros and cons.
 

@Manbearcat , while I agree that it is a legitimate playstyle, I do share your dislike of it. I've never thought of it before in "Benny Hill" terms - in practice, I have found the sort of play you are talking about soaks up a huge amount of time in preparation, which is more ponderous than light-hearted and rompy!

Yeah. It can be either/or or both all at once (to different parties at the table). It just depends on who is at the table. As time went on my table has contracted and has become more coherent where the three players all have very specific, very focused tastes...tastes which are in line with each other.

There was one player (he had a 5 year run with us) that we used to play with that was of the "ponderous" variety. He loved examination and scrutiny and cautious OD&D dungeon crawl style where literally no strategic or precautionary stone could go unturned. Due to his insistent prodding, my players spent an entire 4 hour session (4 hours...yes, 4 hours) deliberating on the best way to traverse a large drain line system in order to attempt to circumvent a singular stealth contest against a few guards when they were attempting to break a political prisoner (a coup led to a doppleganger assuming his identity and a crime syndicate in power) out of a subterranean, city dungeon. Ponderous (and agonizing) indeed.

And, like everyone else, I had your classic "light-hearted and rompy Benny Hill theme queuer" guy. Those guys though can actually be useful in a group of stodgy, "by the book" players. He was quiet and cornered...but every now and then he would pull out his wild-card and an interesting (often silly) gambit would arise.

I think the Strategic Power Plays that bother me the most are both ponderous and light-hearted and rompy. That is how the one I outlined upthread manifested in play. In a game where you are trying to conjure a menial level of thematic quality, they dilute the effort into something pretty undesirable.

Heroes staying behind after unsuccessfully convincing the settlers to evacuate (when they could make their way to safety), standing shoulder to shoulder with an overmatched force of trappers and mostly amateur warriors...staring down their doom...but turning the small settlement into a deathtrap to make sure the bastards pay for their effort or they decide to cut off the slaughter because the toll is too high. That is exciting and heroically thematic. Those same guys whipping out the nuclear missiles and shooting them from their big, orange flying carousel in the sky with carnival music serenading the scene...not so much. And I'm not talking about gonzo fantasy here...just a confluence of absurdities that with their powers combined they create a Captain Planet with clown shoes.

I tend to feel similarly. Its why I prefer faster, simpler systems nowadays, keep the story moving, easy to adapt on the fly. Although, if the players want to spend their time plotting such things, I tend to feel that's their prerogative over any story I might have planned.

One interesting note. I currently game with some old-schoolers, and we were talking about this kind of thing a few months back. Resoundingly, they claimed to love good story, but rejected the idea of planning a story-arc or adventure. They would rather the DM plan a "dungeon" as a mostly static partially interactive puzzle. If any bigger "story" happens, they like it to occur "organically" as they term it. Recurring NPCs should be accidental survivors, in their minds. Whether that's a broader difference in old-school vs. new-school, I dunno.

I think in much of my writing about my games they may have come off as "Adventure Path-ey". In reality, my games are anything but. I do a considerable amount of "story arc" and "scene script" writing. However, in no way do I force this upon my players. Further, only rarely does the emergent play go according to my anticipated, preconceived arcs/scenes. More than anything, they are a skeleton for me to mentally prepare and visualize the game before it is played (and thus be more prepared to improvise). I come from an athletic background whereby I would mentally prepare for everything...running the game, the series, etc through my mind before it would happen. Its something of a ritual. It helps me know where to go when the "script flips". That is how I write Skill Challenges. I compose the most intuitive path from beginning to conclusion and for each skill check resolution I compose scene/genre-relevant "fail forward" and "success with new adversity" results such that I have kind of a "choose your own adventure" schematic (if you're familiar with those children's books). Its extremely helpful in coherently facilitating the scene/genre theme you're going for. To my mind, if there was one bit of advice for Skill Challenges that should have been in the books, it is that.

It seems that to some groups and Game Masters, preparation by way of story-arc/scene writing automatically assumes a rail-roaded, adventure path-ey game rather than a player-choice, organically driven, emergent fiction (it seems every time I invoke "story-arcs" or "scenes", people assume the former). Perhaps that is the case much of the time, but I am quite certain that they need not be one in the same.
 

For instance:

The Barbarian Horde vs the Trapper/Furrier Frontier Settlement

This was not something that was relevant to the current story arc of the game. This was a hook that I inserted as a thematically challenging setpiece for one of my characters specifically...had nothing to do with their current game. One of the characters in my game was a nomadic wood elf. He was an advanced scout for his people. One fateful day, upon his return to their camp, he found the bloodied, battered remnants of his people walking an ancient trail in a line like refugees leaving a war zone. All of the warriors of his people had perished in a raid by a horde of ruthless, human barbarians. All that were left were the few women and younglings that could escape the onslaught. Always suspicious of humans (like a good, xenophobic elf should be), this set him over the edge. The next year, he and a few of the outriders waged a guerrilla war against the barbarians, killing every last one of them (including women and children). Ultimately, they abandoned their duty to their clan in order to avenge (and engage their own bloodlust) the fallen. The clan ultimately perished because of it.

We created a "Haunted" Theme for the character which narratively and mechanically would be intimately tied to his milestones apparatus. He was haunted by:

- His failure to protect his people and/or not dying at the side of the warriors of his clan.
- His unconquerable hatred for humanity...viewing them with the same contempt as orcs.
- His indiscriminate, vengeful, murderous rampage (the women and children).
- His bloodlust winning out over his (to that point) absolute commitment to duty...and it ultimately costing him his clan's continued existence.

At the outset of the game, I composed several scenarios that challenged the theme of the characters. It didn't have anything to do with the main "campaign arc". They could navigate it (or not) as they saw fit.

This particular scenario was dropped in immediately following a rather brutal portion of the campaign. Like my player's character, the scene unfolded similarly:

They came upon an extremely long line of human refugees; settlers from remote, northern communities under the border boughs of great Shadowtop trees. Smoking ruins dotted the horizon. Several women and youngling settlers were leaving their ruined, burned settlements. Five settlements were in full flight, with several of their warriors dying noble deaths to see their safe egress through. However, one settlement remained...determined to fight to the death...unwilling to yield the hard-fought (against the bitter, inhospitable north) lives that their parents' parents had carved out for them...barbarian horde be damned.

I created the settlement, the High Huntsman and a few specific settlers of consequence. I created the settlement itself. I composed the three Skill Challenges I outlined ("A-Team", "Retreat is the Better Part of Valor", "Cut and Run") upthread, unsure of precisely how (or even if), this situation would unfold. I composed the Horde (using Swarm Rules) and the Barbarian Warlord, his Shaman, and his Elite Guard. I had the High Huntsman NPC, the Settler Minions (multiple targets but one focused attack on the Swarm) and I had their Morale Buff and the mechanics of how it passed to the PCs after their deaths. I used p42 for the Limited Use Terrain effects that the player's devised with their "A-Team" success. Standard Hazards. All of this crunch (including the Skill Challenges) probably took me about an hour of prep by the way (so not much).

That is what I mean about "Scene Script" or "Thematic/Story Arc". The players could have chosen whatever route they wish to go. Player Choice and the mechanical resolution tools dictated the outcome. The only input that I had was using this particular player's Theme (and the clear milestone incentives) in order to compose an Arc.
 

pemerton

Legend
Although, if the players want to spend their time plotting such things, I tend to feel that's their prerogative over any story I might have planned.

One interesting note. I currently game with some old-schoolers, and we were talking about this kind of thing a few months back. Resoundingly, they claimed to love good story, but rejected the idea of planning a story-arc or adventure. They would rather the DM plan a "dungeon" as a mostly static partially interactive puzzle. If any bigger "story" happens, they like it to occur "organically" as they term it.
I don't plan story arcs, for pretty standard anti-railroad reasons.

But I don't genrally do static "dungeons". I do provocative scene-framing, and then follow on from there (I think this is pretty much Forge standard operational procedure). Plus I will have a set-piece or two up my sleeve and drop it in as appropriate. If I do prepare a dungeon (or similar location), it will typically be only a handful of room, and I will revise it (and sometimes extend it) during play to achieve my scene-framing goals.

My Hydra post is an example of my approach: the Orcus temple was spontaneous in response to a player's declared actions for his PC (backtracking some cultists), the nightcrawler was planned to follow on from the Orcus temple, the dracolich was spontaneous in response to the post-nightcrawler play, the beholders were planned as an underdark "colour" encounter, the duergar fungus forest and river episode were spontaneous, and the hydra encounter was planned, except I had anticipated the PCs entering from the non-river end of the encounter and so coming to the hydra last, whereas in fact - given what came before - they entered from the river end and so came to the hydra first, and only got into the other tunnels later in the encounter.
 

Ratskinner

Adventurer
It seems that to some groups and Game Masters, preparation by way of story-arc/scene writing automatically assumes a rail-roaded, adventure path-ey game rather than a player-choice, organically driven, emergent fiction (it seems every time I invoke "story-arcs" or "scenes", people assume the former). Perhaps that is the case much of the time, but I am quite certain that they need not be one in the same.
I don't plan story arcs, for pretty standard anti-railroad reasons.

I suspect that some of what drives railroading is the difficulty of preparation. The fact that it often took much longer than an hour or so to whip up a story arc's worth of adversaries and situations means that the DM is far more invested in getting to use that material which is already prepped. Sometimes, I think that "railroading" is merely lack of prep time combined with a DM misinterpreting the party's interests. (Another reason I prefer rules-lighter; I was hooked the first time I ran a game that could "prep" and react on the fly.) This is probably exacerbated by the fact that every single group I have ever seen believes or claims to be driven by story...regardless of the truth of that claim. A DM wanting to play to that false expectation can easily be accused of railroading.

Which is not to say that railroading isn't real, or doesn't happen for other reasons. In groups like mine, I think some of their reactions are learned from bad experiences. They are even skittish about things like Action Points (or its cousins), or any other open admission that we are playing a story or that anything like Narrative Causality might be functioning.

But I don't genrally do static "dungeons". I do provocative scene-framing, and then follow on from there (I think this is pretty much Forge standard operational procedure). Plus I will have a set-piece or two up my sleeve and drop it in as appropriate. If I do prepare a dungeon (or similar location), it will typically be only a handful of room, and I will revise it (and sometimes extend it) during play to achieve my scene-framing goals.

Right. I think that's fine, and (I suspect) would be fine with my group...if you could pull it off outside of 4e.;) The speed and ease of DM prep in 4e allows you to do this in ways that earlier editions would make nearly impossible and certainly impractical. Which is what, I think, leads to the mostly static dungeon style of adventure for old-schoolers. The DM can prep a horde of adversaries, a host of encounters, sometimes connected by a few conditionals (both explicit choices and simple geography) and then leave it up to the party to "solve" it. Reducing the ability of the party to "go off the map" reduces the chances of the DM getting caught with his pants down (a significantly bigger crisis in <4e editions.)
 

@Ratskinner

That's good insight there. I think what I've witnessed (first-hand and second-hand) regarding rail-roading would outlined the following dynamics. Two are DM driven but I'm sure that the third, player-driven type exists:

1) The DM is not particularly good at impromptu content creation or has poor improvisation skills. Railroading is a "safe", risk averse style for such a DM. There is no deep water, so to speak.

2) The DM gains his fine by authoring/actualizing a story. Without such editorial control they wouldn't be in the chair. He gives a tacit nod to mechanical influence and creates the illusion of PC agency but in truth its just a dog and pony show. Further, oftentimes, the players will be willing co-conspiriators to this DM Force (wink, wink, nudge, nudge, say no more, say no more) as they understand that without the DM's interestes sated (story-time), either they may be forced to assume the mantle or the group might be a ship without a sail.

3) The players actually want a railroad. They do not want to make decisions and/or are paralyzed by parsing the content at the table and the subsequent pro-activity required to move the plot themselves. They effectively want to roll dice, listen to a story composed by a DM and perhaps imagine their characters (or attempt to immerse within) participating.

As such, I would say that what you're depicting potentially helps situation 1. If the system is mechanically adversarial to prep and fictional framing then it is less likely for the DM in 1 to "tread the deeper waters" and hone the skills of improvisation and thus the comfort of PC pro-activity/agency in mutual plot creation, and thus emergent fiction.

2 and 3 are beyond the reach of system/mechanical influence on prep.

Personally, I outline skeletal arcs and have thematic scenes prepared for the sake of coherency of chronology and genre and for allowing the PCs to invest in and round out the archetype they are attempting to render within the fiction. I have no specific story that I'm interested in composing by myself. Its just a medium for them to express the fiction their interested in. Jump-off points. Oftentimes, they'll bloom and blossom through PC pro-activity or they will be peripheral or, many times, I find no need for them as the PCs have fully wrested control of the motion of the fiction (which is what I'm hoping for...the skeletal arcs and the scenes are just a means toward the end of them wresting control of the fiction). Themes + Milestones/APs + Quest Rewards assist me in mechanically incentivizing the players investing in and actualizing their chosen archetype/theme. @pemerton has expressed similar usage with the Paladin and Invoker in his group (although he doesn't use Themes as they post-date his current campaign).
 

pemerton

Legend
every single group I have ever seen believes or claims to be driven by story...regardless of the truth of that claim. A DM wanting to play to that false expectation can easily be accused of railroading.
This is why I think that the key word in the Forge's "Story Now" is not "Story" but "Now". Every RPG experience will generate a story - it's all about how that generation relates to the purposes and the procedures of play.

I suspect that some of what drives railroading is the difficulty of preparation.

<snip>

Sometimes, I think that "railroading" is merely lack of prep time combined with a DM misinterpreting the party's interests.

<snip>

Which is not to say that railroading isn't real, or doesn't happen for other reasons.
I think the felt need for preparation can be part of it, yes.

I think there's also a connection here to worldbuilding. One thing that I have found can help with more improvisational GMing is to have the worldbuilding in pretty broad-brush terms (the Points of Light presented in Worlds and Monsters, the 4e PHB and MM, and the DMG is fine for me), and then do a lot of spontaneous creation of detail as play unfolds.

This is the sort of thing that in Burning Wheel is mechanically formalised via Circles mechanics (players get to create NPCs) and Wise mechanics (players get to create backstory) but, especially if the group are comfortable together, you don't need those sorts of mechanics to have just-in-time world creation (whether done mostly by the GM, as in my case, with a few key bits of input from the players, or whether done with the players taking a bigger role, as in BW or the discussion in the 4e DMG2).

Conversely, a GM who has put a lot of effort into worldbuilding from the get go may well have bits of the world that s/he wants to show off in play. If the world also contains a built in thematic or moral orientation that the players have to buy into if they are to engage it at all, then I think railroading can easily ensue.

As you know, I'm a little bit down on 2nd ed AD&D for its railroading tendencies, and that opinion is definitely shaped by some bad experiences, with GMs wanting to dominate the unfolding plot in the interests of telling their version of the incipient story.

The most prolonged example of this that I endured involved a GM with a well-developed homebrew world, a prophecy, and a PC played by a somewhat irritating player who was (of course) at the centre of the prophecy. From that description alone you can probably see all the hallmarks of impending disaster! What was interesting was that the group was quite big (seven players, I think, or six at least) and as a result we were able to build up our own story dynamics via intra-party roleplay. Which kept the campaign alive for six months or so, but also led to a bit of a battle-of-power between players and GM, which the GM resolved in his favour (for the short term, at least) by time-travelling the whole party 100 years in the future, thereby invalidating all the background that we players had mutually created and that underpinned the intra-party dynamics. I left the game not long after (partly because of the change, partly because I got a job that reduced my free time), and I think it ended shortly after that.

The speed and ease of DM prep in 4e allows you to do this in ways that earlier editions would make nearly impossible and certainly impractical. Which is what, I think, leads to the mostly static dungeon style of adventure for old-schoolers. The DM can prep a horde of adversaries, a host of encounters, sometimes connected by a few conditionals (both explicit choices and simple geography) and then leave it up to the party to "solve" it. Reducing the ability of the party to "go off the map" reduces the chances of the DM getting caught with his pants down
I think the "puzzle solving" dimension you allude to here is also an important element of at least some old-school play (Tomb of Horrors and White Plume Mountain are poster children for it, I think). Gygax talks a bit about this in his concluding section of his PHB, and Lewis Pulsipher in the early days of White Dwarf used to emphasise it very much - the the GM must build the dungeon and then not toy with it (especially not on the basis of narrative considerations) because this will undermine the ability of good playes to get and advantage by using divination, scrying etc.

Whereas in my game the "puzzle" dimension is more about how to leverage the unfolding situation in the direction you (the player) want: so it's more about engaging the mechanics to move the story forward in a certain fashion, then about scoping out the "dungeon" to maximise your prospects of a successful foray.

These are very different playstyles, and they take different approaches towards preparation, but I don't think preparation is at the heart of it. You can run improv/just-in-time D&D using AD&D mechanics (I've done it, especially in Oriental Adventures), though it doesn't support this approach as well as 4e does.

In groups like mine, I think some of their reactions are learned from bad experiences. They are even skittish about things like Action Points (or its cousins), or any other open admission that we are playing a story or that anything like Narrative Causality might be functioning.
4e isn't unique in the way it tries to handle this issue, but it is unique among editions of D&D. The transparency of the system - power mechanics, item mechanics, earning and spending action points, DC and damage ranges, etc - all combine to give the players a confidence that the narrative cauality won't hose them or their PCs. And you don't even have to spell all this out - I think that the confidence in the mechanics to give ever fair points of input, and therefore the requisite degree of control over their PC's fate, emerges out of play. Partly because the players encounter it in their own resource management. Partly because the GM has such clear mechanical support for saying "yes" or "yes, but". And partly because the resolution mechanics tend to ensure that no single choice or decision by player, or single adjudication by the GM as to who the monster attacks or where it moves, bring everything crashing down. So the play iteslf is transparent and forgiving in this particular way.

AD&D's lack of this sort of transparency is what I think makes it less reliable as a system for this sort of play, but I'd be interested to hear how you (or others) worked around its deficiencies.

I think D&Dnext could achieve something similar to 4e, in this respect at least, if bounded accuracy works out as I hope it will, but at the moment I am a bit uncertain - and the "rulings, not rules" rhetoric fuels my uncertainty, because to me it focuses too much on loosening things just where they need to be tight if players are to confidently take risks (eg DC setting, damage values, etc) rather than getting the GM's adjudication where is can be put to best use (framing challenges, determining narrative consequences, elaborating complications, etc).

1) The DM is not particularly good at impromptu content creation or has poor improvisation skills. Railroading is a "safe", risk averse style for such a DM. There is no deep water, so to speak.

2) The DM gains his fine by authoring/actualizing a story. Without such editorial control they wouldn't be in the chair. He gives a tacit nod to mechanical influence and creates the illusion of PC agency but in truth its just a dog and pony show. Further, oftentimes, the players will be willing co-conspiriators to this DM Force (wink, wink, nudge, nudge, say no more, say no more) as they understand that without the DM's interestes sated (story-time), either they may be forced to assume the mantle or the group might be a ship without a sail.

3) The players actually want a railroad. They do not want to make decisions and/or are paralyzed by parsing the content at the table and the subsequent pro-activity required to move the plot themselves. They effectively want to roll dice, listen to a story composed by a DM and perhaps imagine their characters (or attempt to immerse within) participating.
[MENTION=386]LostSoul[/MENTION] has posted sometime in the past few months (I can't remember which thread) about your number 3 - players who don't want to make choices, and who prefer to "immerse" in the story that is being created by the GM in which their PCs figure as "protagonists", in a certain sense at least.

I also think that there is a variant on (3), where the player has been "educated" by other RPGers into thinking that the sort of passive acquiesence you describe is what it takes to be a true RPGer - play your guy, emote your lines, but don't shake up the big picture.

In this approach, as in your (2), the tacit nod to mechanical influence may play a role, but it is clearly subordinated to the GM's control over plot: for example, if the PCs are losing a fight the GM won't necessarily fudge, but will introduce some NPC or comparable device to make sure that the direction of things is not derailed.

One thing I find interesting is to see where other RPGers draw signficant boundaries, and how that often differes from my own boundary-drawing tendencies. For instance, the first time I mentioned how I handled the one (and to date only) TPK in my 4e game - namely, the PCs regain consciousness in the goblin prison (except for the one whose player wanted a new PC, and for the one who was really dead - that one literally came back to life at the will of the Raven Queen) - some posters here talked about railroading, or invalidating player choices, and invoked the spectre of deus ex machina.

Whereas it seemed to me (and still seems to me) that my way of handling the TPK - given that it had already been established that the goblins liked to take prisoners - preserved the narrative significance of the loss in combat, while also preserving the continuity in the campaign that was desired by all participants.

In other words, for me what is significant is not the similarity between the deus ex machina and my own approach - PCs continue to live, and thus the campaign goes on - but the similarity between just letting the TPK stand and my own approach - the direction of the narrative changes unexpectedly in response to (i) choices made by the players, and (ii) the consequences (in this case, failure) that resulted from those choices.
 

@pemerton

I'll have to attempt to locate that thread. For what its worth, I don't percieve what you outlined as railroading (specifically given the explicit consultation of the players...that would appear to be utterly at odds with the idea of railroading). You are not circumventing "the will of the players" nor "the fall of the dice" in the social contract sense (which is the important part here). The situation is overt, explicit, above board...outside of the realm of DM force.

I've often spoke to my disdain for unbounded, non-hard-coded Divination effects that circumvent the established resolution mechanics. Most often I speak to my annoyance with them due to their propensity to make null/circumvent investigatory and exploration challenges. However, the other part of this is related to what we're speaking of now. There is a DM Force and Rail-Roady aspect to them that I also cannot stand. There is a tension between the wittiness/logic of the DM and the players being on the same page in their mental framework/inferences. This can lead to a real or percieved arbitrariness/willful opacity to the exchange (DM's adjudication to player's inference). Further, there can be a real or percieved outright, willful DM blockage of a PC's invested resource scheme in order to sustain the sanctity of the challenge. I abhor that potential for passive aggression/percieved malignance or distrust embedded in any resolution mechanics (especially within a PC's invested resource scheme).
 

Ratskinner

Adventurer
This is why I think that the key word in the Forge's "Story Now" is not "Story" but "Now". Every RPG experience will generate a story - it's all about how that generation relates to the purposes and the procedures of play.

I agree. Its given me pretty high standards for what I call a "Narrative game" anymore. Of course, the problem (if you're into this way of playing) with D&D is that it brings a great herd of mechanical sacred cows forward that make very hard to play that way.

I think the felt need for preparation can be part of it, yes.

I think there's also a connection here to worldbuilding. One thing that I have found can help with more improvisational GMing is to have the worldbuilding in pretty broad-brush terms (the Points of Light presented in Worlds and Monsters, the 4e PHB and MM, and the DMG is fine for me), and then do a lot of spontaneous creation of detail as play unfolds.

This is the sort of thing that in Burning Wheel is mechanically formalised via Circles mechanics (players get to create NPCs) and Wise mechanics (players get to create backstory) but, especially if the group are comfortable together, you don't need those sorts of mechanics to have just-in-time world creation (whether done mostly by the GM, as in my case, with a few key bits of input from the players, or whether done with the players taking a bigger role, as in BW or the discussion in the 4e DMG2).

FATE (at least the latest version) has all that, too. It is certainly a different experience prepping to run a game like that. I think there is some entanglement here between player/DM control, and social-sphere game mechanics. Some of 3e's difficulties w.r.t. summoning and animal companions probably illustrate it quite nicely.

Conversely, a GM who has put a lot of effort into worldbuilding from the get go may well have bits of the world that s/he wants to show off in play. If the world also contains a built in thematic or moral orientation that the players have to buy into if they are to engage it at all, then I think railroading can easily ensue.

Definitely true. I've seen this the most often when someone wants to run "the evil campaign." Most people seem to not be that good at being the bad guy. Just about every such campaign I've ever seen quickly stalls soon after the PCs are done admiring their imaginary silver-and-black (possibly with purple accents) equipment. I can't tell you how many times I've witnessed desperate DMs conjuring up large criminal organizations just to issue orders to the PCs.*

As you know, I'm a little bit down on 2nd ed AD&D for its railroading tendencies, and that opinion is definitely shaped by some bad experiences, with GMs wanting to dominate the unfolding plot in the interests of telling their version of the incipient story.

2e definitely knew where it wanted to go, but it didn't know how to get there. To be fair, I don't think anybody did back in 1988.

These are very different playstyles, and they take different approaches towards preparation, but I don't think preparation is at the heart of it. You can run improv/just-in-time D&D using AD&D mechanics (I've done it, especially in Oriental Adventures), though it doesn't support this approach as well as 4e does.

Sure you can. I can (or could back in the day). The problem is that its pretty hard, and/or requires a very "on-top-of-it" DM. Certainly those were rare, if the constant complaining about bad DMs is any indication. Personally, I did it when I was in college and had plenty of mental time/effort to put into such things. I could rattle off all sorts of numbers regarding ACs and obscures rules and ruling. Nowadays, I'm quite confident that such mental overhead isn't worth my effort.

4e isn't unique in the way it tries to handle this issue, but it is unique among editions of D&D. The transparency of the system - power mechanics, item mechanics, earning and spending action points, DC and damage ranges, etc - all combine to give the players a confidence that the narrative cauality won't hose them or their PCs. And you don't even have to spell all this out - I think that the confidence in the mechanics to give ever fair points of input, and therefore the requisite degree of control over their PC's fate, emerges out of play. Partly because the players encounter it in their own resource management. Partly because the GM has such clear mechanical support for saying "yes" or "yes, but". And partly because the resolution mechanics tend to ensure that no single choice or decision by player, or single adjudication by the GM as to who the monster attacks or where it moves, bring everything crashing down. So the play iteslf is transparent and forgiving in this particular way.

AD&D's lack of this sort of transparency is what I think makes it less reliable as a system for this sort of play, but I'd be interested to hear how you (or others) worked around its deficiencies.

Two ways:
First and foremost, system mastery (although I hesitate to use the term). I didn't just read those rulebooks, I studied them. Once you had a deep enough knowledge of the various bits and pieces of the system, a sort of gestalt understanding could arise, and then you could use that to crank out things quickly. This was a lot "fuzzier" than 4e's, because of the way the system core worked. If you were to try and recreate it explicitly, as 4e does, there would be a great many conditional rules to it.

Secondly, what I called friendly DMing. There's a lot of advice in the 2e books for DMs. A good portion of it is pretty good. It is a rather fine line to walk, however. Personally, I was quite happy to let things roll. My goals, the things I wanted to show off, were not contrary to how the players wanted to go about things. I wasn't trying to pull off a "serious" story, and other DMs often teased me about my world (magic-heavy, over-the-top), but I figured if we were all having fun....who cared? The funny thing is, much like how a sit-com can evolve into a drama, my campaigns ended up achieving a very high reputation amongst my college crowd.

Now, I'm not sure exactly why that second part worked as well as it did, but I have a pretty good suspicion. I've tried lots of different games and game styles, and I've noticed a few things, but one of them is....Drama is very hard to do, even in games that develop that history as part of character creation. You need a very specific type of player who's willing to invest in the tension(s) and characters quickly. I haven't met many people like that.

Its much more effective to start with a simpler, sillier, game and work up to something that "matters." People invest much more readily and deeply into a character whose story they have experienced "firsthand." Characters need to start with plenty of blank spaces that get filled in later. This is yet another factor in my desire for fast-playing rules. The faster we can build up history, the faster folks will be genuinely invested in their characters.

I think D&Dnext could achieve something similar to 4e, in this respect at least, if bounded accuracy works out as I hope it will, but at the moment I am a bit uncertain - and the "rulings, not rules" rhetoric fuels my uncertainty, because to me it focuses too much on loosening things just where they need to be tight if players are to confidently take risks (eg DC setting, damage values, etc) rather than getting the GM's adjudication where is can be put to best use (framing challenges, determining narrative consequences, elaborating complications, etc).

enh...I'm not sure I like players "confidently taking risks", it sounds a little too much like "astutely calculating odds" to me. How risky is it, if you're confident?;) I too have high hopes for bounded accuracy. I don't think we've seen enough of the rest to know.

*I personally find it more interesting to try and play a toady or lieutenant in such games, but rarely find a worthy master. In the one game where I played a dominant evil character from the start, I horrified the rest of the players to a degree that the campaign ended. :blush: (Just as I had finally succeeded in attracting the attention of an order of Paladins and creating the hero who should've gone on to defeat me, more's the pity.)
 

pemerton

Legend
Sure you can. I can (or could back in the day). The problem is that its pretty hard, and/or requires a very "on-top-of-it" DM. Certainly those were rare, if the constant complaining about bad DMs is any indication. Personally, I did it when I was in college and had plenty of mental time/effort to put into such things. I could rattle off all sorts of numbers regarding ACs and obscures rules and ruling. Nowadays, I'm quite confident that such mental overhead isn't worth my effort.

<snip>

I didn't just read those rulebooks, I studied them. Once you had a deep enough knowledge of the various bits and pieces of the system, a sort of gestalt understanding could arise, and then you could use that to crank out things quickly.

<snip>

Secondly, what I called friendly DMing.
This reminds me a lot of my approach to GMing Rolemaster, which was my university and post-university game for nearly 20 years.

I couldn't go back to it, though - your mental overhead comment is spot on in that respect, and also there are too many mechanical bits that get in the way.

I agree. Its given me pretty high standards for what I call a "Narrative game" anymore.

<snip>

The funny thing is, much like how a sit-com can evolve into a drama, my campaigns ended up achieving a very high reputation amongst my college crowd.

<snip>

Drama is very hard to do, even in games that develop that history as part of character creation. You need a very specific type of player who's willing to invest in the tension(s) and characters quickly. I haven't met many people like that.

Its much more effective to start with a simpler, sillier, game and work up to something that "matters." People invest much more readily and deeply into a character whose story they have experienced "firsthand." Characters need to start with plenty of blank spaces that get filled in later. This is yet another factor in my desire for fast-playing rules. The faster we can build up history, the faster folks will be genuinely invested in their characters.
I suspect that you would find my game too slow and insufficiently narrativist for your taste.

I definitely come to RPGing from the traditional side of things, and use the indie ideas/techniques to strengthen a game that is rooted in traditional fantasy RPGing. I would think of my game as quite traditional except for the pushback I've experienced on these boards when describing my approach to GMing (with respect to metagame mechanics, GM authority over plot, "player entitlement", etc).

When my game achieves "drama", I think it would often be better characterised as melodrama or soap opera. When compared to novels or film, I find RPGing to be a pretty poor medium for conveying subtleties of character or situation, because there is so little deliberate creative control over the way those things emerge in the course of play - multiple creative participants, no scope for rewriting/editing, etc.

The short session that I GMed on the weekend began with the PCs barely alive after their fight with the hydra and its elemental bodyguards, and in two separate groups on the battlefield, separated by steaming water, hot semi-solid rock and lava. As the players debated how to proceed, I described the duergar theurge dropping down on a rope from the cleft in the cavern roof.

The players, and some of the PCs, already knew she was there - she had earlier dropped down a potion to help the invoker PC, and the invoker had signalled her that "the debt would be repayed". After a brief exchange of words between the duergar and a couple of the PCs, she walked past them and picked up the fragment of the Sceptre of Law (= Rod of Seven Parts) that had been cut from the neck of the hydra. The duergar explained that this was her due. The PCs disagreed - they would repay the debt, but a fragment of the Sceptre went beyond any dues that they owed, and she could not have it.

This disagreement ended up being resolved peacefully (mechanically, it was a complexity 2 skill challenge). The fragment of the Sceptre wanted to merge with the other 3 pieces wielded by the invoker PC, and it was clear that the duergar was having trouble controlling it - she was sweating (despite her Resist Fire 10) and paying less and less heed to what the PCs were saying. The invoker defused the situation by suggesting that the two parts of the rod be allowed to fuse, and then it be allowed to choose who should wield it. Each through their piece to the ground - she her one fragment, he his three conjoined fragments - and they fused together. The invoker then picked up the rod without trouble. He then invited her to take her turn. She struggled with it, and then relinquished. The PCs then set off with her to her clan stronghold, to rest and to learn what they can do to repay their debt in some suitable fashion.

As well as that dramatic centrepiece of the session, there was plenty of colour. Some of it was basically comedic - for example, the chaos drow trying to extract a guarantee of safe conduct from the ultra-lawful, devil-worshipping duergar; and the religious and historical discussions between the tiefling paladin and the duergar theurge, with the PC warpriest of Moradin occasionally chiming in from the sidelines. Some other colour was "pipe-laying", to borrow a phrase I learned from Robin Laws Hamlet's hit points - the PCs got to see the duergar orc and ogre slaves, and also got a demonstration of the duergar's Expansion ability in the context of a demonstration of how the duergar maintain control over their ogre servitors. This also created an opportunity for various PCs to evince their own hostility to orcs and ogres (especially the invoker, who is near-genocidal towards the "evil" humanoids, after they sacked and destroyed his home city). The whole episode also allowed the players to consolidate their conception of the place of duergar, and devils, in the cosmological conflict that is the centrepiece of the game. (And the tiefling in particular, in the initial interaction with the duergar theurge, emphasised multiple times that in earlier dealings with the duergar the PCs had always found them honourable and true to their word.)

But the negotiation with the duergar in the hydra cavern was also interspersed with a whole lot of procedural play - working out how the PCs make their way across the punishing terrain, for exampe, and how many hit points this cost them - which the system requires, given that a combat with the duergar was a clear possibility, but which I think you would regard as a significant impediment to resolving the central dramatic conflict.

This is where the "heaviness" of the D&D mechanics, even in 4e, puts a bit of a brake on the "now" in "Story Now".

I'm not sure I like players "confidently taking risks", it sounds a little too much like "astutely calculating odds" to me. How risky is it, if you're confident?
The confidence I had in mind wasn't "confience that I'll win", but rather "confidence that I won't be hosed if I lose". My TPK example upthread is the sort of thing I have in mind - because 4e makes it (mechanically) easy to resolve 0 hp as unconsciousness rather than death, it creates scope for PCs to lose combat without necessarily dying. And because of the way it sets up the cosmology of the Shadowfell, it permits PCs to die without death necessarily being permanent - there are a lot of cosmological players (the Raven Queen, but not just her) who might send a spirit back for some reason, which allows PC death to be treated as a complication rather than a "game over" event.

When players know that losing a conflict doesn't have to mean losing the game, I think they become more willing to take risks with their PCs, and to push things a bit harder, rather than turtling up. Turtling is certainly one enemy of free-flowing, dramatic play, in my experience at least.
 

<snip>

When players know that losing a conflict doesn't have to mean losing the game, I think they become more willing to take risks with their PCs, and to push things a bit harder, rather than turtling up. Turtling is certainly one enemy of free-flowing, dramatic play, in my experience at least.

Absolutely on this. In my view, the largest group of impediments to a functional "fiction/genre/thematic interest first" game are:

1 - De-incentivizing PC behavior on fiction/genre/thematic grounds (reactively in tactical play and pro-actively in strategic play and in roleplay). There is an intrinsic PC unwillingness to take risks embedded in standard D&D play as failure in task resolution means "you're a buffoon" or "non-proficient (specifically when you're trying to express an archetype that is proficient, well practiced, or masterful) and failure in combat means you're dead. A system whereby the cost (risk of TPK/narrative ending) benefit (narrative enrichment on thematic, genre-relevant grounds) analysis is overwhelmed by the punitive nature of the cost end of the spectrum narrows choices to a singularity; what yields success. Accordingly, like sub-optimal strategic, tactical, and roleplay choices (on thematic/genre-relevant grounds), sub-optimal PC build choices yielding buffoonery or "dead status" renders thematic choices utterly subordinate to the aforementioned buffoonery avoidance/mere survival choices.

2 - Lack of mechanical incentive/impetus to behave (reactively and proactively) and to build PCs on fiction/genre/thematic grounds.

3 - Lack of thematic build choices to flesh out archetype.


Again, 4th edition (unlike all other D&D editions) proves its mettle here:

- Tight encounter budgeting allowing DMs absolute control over what challenges he puts before the PCs (thereby there being virtually no risk of a TPK-level challenge manifesting by accident or fuzzy math). As such, the "cost" (in this case, the potential for TPK lurking around every "encounter corner"...sometimes by way of DM miscalculation) is bounded considerably yielding the opportunity for the "benefit" (thematic, genre-relevant choices) to be brought to bear much more consistently (especially with p42). This is the inhibition of the de-incentive of 1. Beyond that, from the DM side of the screen, it allows me to trust the budget will map the encounter to my anticipated output, thus allowing me to focus on enriching it tactically, strategically and thematically.

- Richly thematic power choices and Class constructs allowing for strong archetype creation both tactically and as expressed in the fiction. P42, Themes and Backgrounds further advance this considerably. This is the inverse of 3 - across the board for all classes.

- Minor Quest Rewards for completion of theme/background relevant to the chosen archetype. This is even better supported if cooperatively meta-gamed together with the player (or mined during discussions...sort of like investigating for potential Christmas present prospects ;)) before the game or as the game progresses. This is the incentive of 2.

- Milestones/APs rewarded for properly rendered thematic play or the willingness to take risks/lose (sometimes intentionally lose) for the sake of thematic play or dynamic, genre-relevant narrative. This is the incentive of 2.

- Fail Forward Conflict Resolution of Skill Challenges. A singular failed Skill Check need not lead to buffoonery and an ultimate failure of the Skill Challenge leads to a new challenge, new adversity...not a dead end (literally or figuratively). This manifests as the inhibition of the de-incentive of 1. It can also be the incentive of 2 (Awarding APs for extraordinarily thematic risk-taking in Skill Challenges or a Failure leading to a bonus or an opportunity for 2 successes out of 1 roll)
 

pemerton

Legend
I've often spoke to my disdain for unbounded, non-hard-coded Divination effects that circumvent the established resolution mechanics.

<snip>

There is a DM Force and Rail-Roady aspect to them that I also cannot stand. There is a tension between the wittiness/logic of the DM and the players being on the same page in their mental framework/inferences. This can lead to a real or percieved arbitrariness/willful opacity to the exchange (DM's adjudication to player's inference). Further, there can be a real or percieved outright, willful DM blockage of a PC's invested resource scheme in order to sustain the sanctity of the challenge.
For just these reasons I have had plenty of trouble with the Rolemaster Dream spell (an open ended divination effect available to many classes, and comparable in D&D terms to Legend Lore or Divination). There is arbitrariness. There is opacity. There is the need for the GM to adjudicate between blockage and breakig the challenge. All-in-all a source of irritation.
 
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Ratskinner

Adventurer
I suspect that you would find my game too slow and insufficiently narrativist for your taste.

I think I'd like playing in it, from the sound of it. Honestly, I'm still looking for a "perfect" system for me. (Whether I can find/convince a group to play it with me is another problem.:heh:) I keep running into games (usually Indie, anymore) that look great, but somehow don't work out as well in practice. I have high hopes for the Cortex+ System from the Marvel rpg. I'm hoping for a solid fantasy version to bubble up.

...plus rpgs usually don't have dramatic background music cued up...:D

I definitely come to RPGing from the traditional side of things, and use the indie ideas/techniques to strengthen a game that is rooted in traditional fantasy RPGing. I would think of my game as quite traditional except for the pushback I've experienced on these boards when describing my approach to GMing (with respect to metagame mechanics, GM authority over plot, "player entitlement", etc).

When my game achieves "drama", I think it would often be better characterised as melodrama or soap opera. When compared to novels or film, I find RPGing to be a pretty poor medium for conveying subtleties of character or situation, because there is so little deliberate creative control over the way those things emerge in the course of play - multiple creative participants, no scope for rewriting/editing, etc.

I think that's fine. "Firefly" level drama is usually a lot more fun than "Lord of the Rings" level drama. I agree that there's probably an upper limit for rpgs. Characters in rpgs just don't have the forum for soliloquizing as the primary character in a novel does (when they do, players usually describe it third person).

Basically, I'm just looking for some level of investment. D&D (along with most rpgs) doesn't do that well from the start, at least for most players. However, most games seem to develop it over time. I think this is a big part of what my group means about story developing "organically". They, and I believe a lot of players, have a lot of trouble "getting into" goals or motives that they don't see originate, even if they select them at character creation.

<snip>

This is where the "heaviness" of the D&D mechanics, even in 4e, puts a bit of a brake on the "now" in "Story Now".

I was going to mention it above, but here sounds better. I think what you're talking about here is just the "nature of the beast" for D&D.

<snippage>

When players know that losing a conflict doesn't have to mean losing the game, I think they become more willing to take risks with their PCs, and to push things a bit harder, rather than turtling up. Turtling is certainly one enemy of free-flowing, dramatic play, in my experience at least.

Gotcha. I haven't seen that as much of an impediment. I find the players/PCs arguing over the best/safest way to proceed is often a good prelude to later drama and interaction. They always find a way to move forward. That may be just an individual taste thing, though. I still saw plenty of it in my 4e games, but that may be that my players weren't familiar enough to drop old habits.
 

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