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D&D 5E Legends and Lore October 22nd

On another note, here is the kind of "Queue the Benny Hill Theme Music" Strategic Power-Play hijinks that are totally destructive to the kind of game I'm interested in running these days:

From memory (this was several years ago): Phantom Steed + Fabricate tons of balls of (soon to be burning when the flying druid fire elemental and summoned fire elementals sets them alight) pitch in crafted Bags of Holding + Group of PCs flying sorties over a horde of trolls and their goblin minions in their dry, gaseous peat bog domain (and then rinsing and repeating a similar, yet slightly tweaked, power-play 3 more times in the next 5 months). I'm sure plenty of folks will read that and go OH YEAH. But at this point in my gaming life I just go...yeah. Its a legitimate playstyle (and god knows I'm very familiar with it and have played it for years upon years). Its just not what I'm interested in anymore.

If that Strategic Power-Play was available (and there weren't tools that specifically promote and resolve the conflict the way we did), I guarantee the thematic, climactic and tactical awesomeness of my above Barbarian Horde overwhelming a Settlement scenario would not have been realized and the Benny Hill music would have been queued.
 

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pemerton

Legend
[MENTION=6696971]Manbearcat[/MENTION], while I agree that it is a legitimate playstyle, I do share your dislike of it. I've never thought of it before in "Benny Hill" terms - in practice, I have found the sort of play you are talking about soaks up a huge amount of time in preparation, which is more ponderous than light-hearted and rompy!
 

Ratskinner

Adventurer
On another note, here is the kind of "Queue the Benny Hill Theme Music" Strategic Power-Play hijinks that are totally destructive to the kind of game I'm interested in running these days:
<snippage>
If that Strategic Power-Play was available (and there weren't tools that specifically promote and resolve the conflict the way we did), I guarantee the thematic, climactic and tactical awesomeness of my above Barbarian Horde overwhelming a Settlement scenario would not have been realized and the Benny Hill music would have been queued.

@Manbearcat , while I agree that it is a legitimate playstyle, I do share your dislike of it. I've never thought of it before in "Benny Hill" terms - in practice, I have found the sort of play you are talking about soaks up a huge amount of time in preparation, which is more ponderous than light-hearted and rompy!

I tend to feel similarly. Its why I prefer faster, simpler systems nowadays, keep the story moving, easy to adapt on the fly. Although, if the players want to spend their time plotting such things, I tend to feel that's their prerogative over any story I might have planned.

One interesting note. I currently game with some old-schoolers, and we were talking about this kind of thing a few months back. Resoundingly, they claimed to love good story, but rejected the idea of planning a story-arc or adventure. They would rather the DM plan a "dungeon" as a mostly static partially interactive puzzle. If any bigger "story" happens, they like it to occur "organically" as they term it. Recurring NPCs should be accidental survivors, in their minds. Whether that's a broader difference in old-school vs. new-school, I dunno.
 

GameDoc

Explorer
One interesting note. I currently game with some old-schoolers, and we were talking about this kind of thing a few months back. Resoundingly, they claimed to love good story, but rejected the idea of planning a story-arc or adventure. They would rather the DM plan a "dungeon" as a mostly static partially interactive puzzle. If any bigger "story" happens, they like it to occur "organically" as they term it. Recurring NPCs should be accidental survivors, in their minds. Whether that's a broader difference in old-school vs. new-school, I dunno.

I think that's totally Old School (and totally cool).

Somewhere along the way, D&D has evolved to codify things that used to happen organically. The only thing that linked the different adventures in a lot of old school campaigns were the involvement of the same PCs, particularly if the DM was stringing together published modules. Recurrent NPCs, random house rules, even the expanded campaign setting itself would emerge from the attemp to create continuity on the fly by both DM and players.

That's not a criticism of New School. Both styles are valid and have their pros and cons.
 

@Manbearcat , while I agree that it is a legitimate playstyle, I do share your dislike of it. I've never thought of it before in "Benny Hill" terms - in practice, I have found the sort of play you are talking about soaks up a huge amount of time in preparation, which is more ponderous than light-hearted and rompy!

Yeah. It can be either/or or both all at once (to different parties at the table). It just depends on who is at the table. As time went on my table has contracted and has become more coherent where the three players all have very specific, very focused tastes...tastes which are in line with each other.

There was one player (he had a 5 year run with us) that we used to play with that was of the "ponderous" variety. He loved examination and scrutiny and cautious OD&D dungeon crawl style where literally no strategic or precautionary stone could go unturned. Due to his insistent prodding, my players spent an entire 4 hour session (4 hours...yes, 4 hours) deliberating on the best way to traverse a large drain line system in order to attempt to circumvent a singular stealth contest against a few guards when they were attempting to break a political prisoner (a coup led to a doppleganger assuming his identity and a crime syndicate in power) out of a subterranean, city dungeon. Ponderous (and agonizing) indeed.

And, like everyone else, I had your classic "light-hearted and rompy Benny Hill theme queuer" guy. Those guys though can actually be useful in a group of stodgy, "by the book" players. He was quiet and cornered...but every now and then he would pull out his wild-card and an interesting (often silly) gambit would arise.

I think the Strategic Power Plays that bother me the most are both ponderous and light-hearted and rompy. That is how the one I outlined upthread manifested in play. In a game where you are trying to conjure a menial level of thematic quality, they dilute the effort into something pretty undesirable.

Heroes staying behind after unsuccessfully convincing the settlers to evacuate (when they could make their way to safety), standing shoulder to shoulder with an overmatched force of trappers and mostly amateur warriors...staring down their doom...but turning the small settlement into a deathtrap to make sure the bastards pay for their effort or they decide to cut off the slaughter because the toll is too high. That is exciting and heroically thematic. Those same guys whipping out the nuclear missiles and shooting them from their big, orange flying carousel in the sky with carnival music serenading the scene...not so much. And I'm not talking about gonzo fantasy here...just a confluence of absurdities that with their powers combined they create a Captain Planet with clown shoes.

I tend to feel similarly. Its why I prefer faster, simpler systems nowadays, keep the story moving, easy to adapt on the fly. Although, if the players want to spend their time plotting such things, I tend to feel that's their prerogative over any story I might have planned.

One interesting note. I currently game with some old-schoolers, and we were talking about this kind of thing a few months back. Resoundingly, they claimed to love good story, but rejected the idea of planning a story-arc or adventure. They would rather the DM plan a "dungeon" as a mostly static partially interactive puzzle. If any bigger "story" happens, they like it to occur "organically" as they term it. Recurring NPCs should be accidental survivors, in their minds. Whether that's a broader difference in old-school vs. new-school, I dunno.

I think in much of my writing about my games they may have come off as "Adventure Path-ey". In reality, my games are anything but. I do a considerable amount of "story arc" and "scene script" writing. However, in no way do I force this upon my players. Further, only rarely does the emergent play go according to my anticipated, preconceived arcs/scenes. More than anything, they are a skeleton for me to mentally prepare and visualize the game before it is played (and thus be more prepared to improvise). I come from an athletic background whereby I would mentally prepare for everything...running the game, the series, etc through my mind before it would happen. Its something of a ritual. It helps me know where to go when the "script flips". That is how I write Skill Challenges. I compose the most intuitive path from beginning to conclusion and for each skill check resolution I compose scene/genre-relevant "fail forward" and "success with new adversity" results such that I have kind of a "choose your own adventure" schematic (if you're familiar with those children's books). Its extremely helpful in coherently facilitating the scene/genre theme you're going for. To my mind, if there was one bit of advice for Skill Challenges that should have been in the books, it is that.

It seems that to some groups and Game Masters, preparation by way of story-arc/scene writing automatically assumes a rail-roaded, adventure path-ey game rather than a player-choice, organically driven, emergent fiction (it seems every time I invoke "story-arcs" or "scenes", people assume the former). Perhaps that is the case much of the time, but I am quite certain that they need not be one in the same.
 

For instance:

The Barbarian Horde vs the Trapper/Furrier Frontier Settlement

This was not something that was relevant to the current story arc of the game. This was a hook that I inserted as a thematically challenging setpiece for one of my characters specifically...had nothing to do with their current game. One of the characters in my game was a nomadic wood elf. He was an advanced scout for his people. One fateful day, upon his return to their camp, he found the bloodied, battered remnants of his people walking an ancient trail in a line like refugees leaving a war zone. All of the warriors of his people had perished in a raid by a horde of ruthless, human barbarians. All that were left were the few women and younglings that could escape the onslaught. Always suspicious of humans (like a good, xenophobic elf should be), this set him over the edge. The next year, he and a few of the outriders waged a guerrilla war against the barbarians, killing every last one of them (including women and children). Ultimately, they abandoned their duty to their clan in order to avenge (and engage their own bloodlust) the fallen. The clan ultimately perished because of it.

We created a "Haunted" Theme for the character which narratively and mechanically would be intimately tied to his milestones apparatus. He was haunted by:

- His failure to protect his people and/or not dying at the side of the warriors of his clan.
- His unconquerable hatred for humanity...viewing them with the same contempt as orcs.
- His indiscriminate, vengeful, murderous rampage (the women and children).
- His bloodlust winning out over his (to that point) absolute commitment to duty...and it ultimately costing him his clan's continued existence.

At the outset of the game, I composed several scenarios that challenged the theme of the characters. It didn't have anything to do with the main "campaign arc". They could navigate it (or not) as they saw fit.

This particular scenario was dropped in immediately following a rather brutal portion of the campaign. Like my player's character, the scene unfolded similarly:

They came upon an extremely long line of human refugees; settlers from remote, northern communities under the border boughs of great Shadowtop trees. Smoking ruins dotted the horizon. Several women and youngling settlers were leaving their ruined, burned settlements. Five settlements were in full flight, with several of their warriors dying noble deaths to see their safe egress through. However, one settlement remained...determined to fight to the death...unwilling to yield the hard-fought (against the bitter, inhospitable north) lives that their parents' parents had carved out for them...barbarian horde be damned.

I created the settlement, the High Huntsman and a few specific settlers of consequence. I created the settlement itself. I composed the three Skill Challenges I outlined ("A-Team", "Retreat is the Better Part of Valor", "Cut and Run") upthread, unsure of precisely how (or even if), this situation would unfold. I composed the Horde (using Swarm Rules) and the Barbarian Warlord, his Shaman, and his Elite Guard. I had the High Huntsman NPC, the Settler Minions (multiple targets but one focused attack on the Swarm) and I had their Morale Buff and the mechanics of how it passed to the PCs after their deaths. I used p42 for the Limited Use Terrain effects that the player's devised with their "A-Team" success. Standard Hazards. All of this crunch (including the Skill Challenges) probably took me about an hour of prep by the way (so not much).

That is what I mean about "Scene Script" or "Thematic/Story Arc". The players could have chosen whatever route they wish to go. Player Choice and the mechanical resolution tools dictated the outcome. The only input that I had was using this particular player's Theme (and the clear milestone incentives) in order to compose an Arc.
 

pemerton

Legend
Although, if the players want to spend their time plotting such things, I tend to feel that's their prerogative over any story I might have planned.

One interesting note. I currently game with some old-schoolers, and we were talking about this kind of thing a few months back. Resoundingly, they claimed to love good story, but rejected the idea of planning a story-arc or adventure. They would rather the DM plan a "dungeon" as a mostly static partially interactive puzzle. If any bigger "story" happens, they like it to occur "organically" as they term it.
I don't plan story arcs, for pretty standard anti-railroad reasons.

But I don't genrally do static "dungeons". I do provocative scene-framing, and then follow on from there (I think this is pretty much Forge standard operational procedure). Plus I will have a set-piece or two up my sleeve and drop it in as appropriate. If I do prepare a dungeon (or similar location), it will typically be only a handful of room, and I will revise it (and sometimes extend it) during play to achieve my scene-framing goals.

My Hydra post is an example of my approach: the Orcus temple was spontaneous in response to a player's declared actions for his PC (backtracking some cultists), the nightcrawler was planned to follow on from the Orcus temple, the dracolich was spontaneous in response to the post-nightcrawler play, the beholders were planned as an underdark "colour" encounter, the duergar fungus forest and river episode were spontaneous, and the hydra encounter was planned, except I had anticipated the PCs entering from the non-river end of the encounter and so coming to the hydra last, whereas in fact - given what came before - they entered from the river end and so came to the hydra first, and only got into the other tunnels later in the encounter.
 

Ratskinner

Adventurer
It seems that to some groups and Game Masters, preparation by way of story-arc/scene writing automatically assumes a rail-roaded, adventure path-ey game rather than a player-choice, organically driven, emergent fiction (it seems every time I invoke "story-arcs" or "scenes", people assume the former). Perhaps that is the case much of the time, but I am quite certain that they need not be one in the same.
I don't plan story arcs, for pretty standard anti-railroad reasons.

I suspect that some of what drives railroading is the difficulty of preparation. The fact that it often took much longer than an hour or so to whip up a story arc's worth of adversaries and situations means that the DM is far more invested in getting to use that material which is already prepped. Sometimes, I think that "railroading" is merely lack of prep time combined with a DM misinterpreting the party's interests. (Another reason I prefer rules-lighter; I was hooked the first time I ran a game that could "prep" and react on the fly.) This is probably exacerbated by the fact that every single group I have ever seen believes or claims to be driven by story...regardless of the truth of that claim. A DM wanting to play to that false expectation can easily be accused of railroading.

Which is not to say that railroading isn't real, or doesn't happen for other reasons. In groups like mine, I think some of their reactions are learned from bad experiences. They are even skittish about things like Action Points (or its cousins), or any other open admission that we are playing a story or that anything like Narrative Causality might be functioning.

But I don't genrally do static "dungeons". I do provocative scene-framing, and then follow on from there (I think this is pretty much Forge standard operational procedure). Plus I will have a set-piece or two up my sleeve and drop it in as appropriate. If I do prepare a dungeon (or similar location), it will typically be only a handful of room, and I will revise it (and sometimes extend it) during play to achieve my scene-framing goals.

Right. I think that's fine, and (I suspect) would be fine with my group...if you could pull it off outside of 4e.;) The speed and ease of DM prep in 4e allows you to do this in ways that earlier editions would make nearly impossible and certainly impractical. Which is what, I think, leads to the mostly static dungeon style of adventure for old-schoolers. The DM can prep a horde of adversaries, a host of encounters, sometimes connected by a few conditionals (both explicit choices and simple geography) and then leave it up to the party to "solve" it. Reducing the ability of the party to "go off the map" reduces the chances of the DM getting caught with his pants down (a significantly bigger crisis in <4e editions.)
 

@Ratskinner

That's good insight there. I think what I've witnessed (first-hand and second-hand) regarding rail-roading would outlined the following dynamics. Two are DM driven but I'm sure that the third, player-driven type exists:

1) The DM is not particularly good at impromptu content creation or has poor improvisation skills. Railroading is a "safe", risk averse style for such a DM. There is no deep water, so to speak.

2) The DM gains his fine by authoring/actualizing a story. Without such editorial control they wouldn't be in the chair. He gives a tacit nod to mechanical influence and creates the illusion of PC agency but in truth its just a dog and pony show. Further, oftentimes, the players will be willing co-conspiriators to this DM Force (wink, wink, nudge, nudge, say no more, say no more) as they understand that without the DM's interestes sated (story-time), either they may be forced to assume the mantle or the group might be a ship without a sail.

3) The players actually want a railroad. They do not want to make decisions and/or are paralyzed by parsing the content at the table and the subsequent pro-activity required to move the plot themselves. They effectively want to roll dice, listen to a story composed by a DM and perhaps imagine their characters (or attempt to immerse within) participating.

As such, I would say that what you're depicting potentially helps situation 1. If the system is mechanically adversarial to prep and fictional framing then it is less likely for the DM in 1 to "tread the deeper waters" and hone the skills of improvisation and thus the comfort of PC pro-activity/agency in mutual plot creation, and thus emergent fiction.

2 and 3 are beyond the reach of system/mechanical influence on prep.

Personally, I outline skeletal arcs and have thematic scenes prepared for the sake of coherency of chronology and genre and for allowing the PCs to invest in and round out the archetype they are attempting to render within the fiction. I have no specific story that I'm interested in composing by myself. Its just a medium for them to express the fiction their interested in. Jump-off points. Oftentimes, they'll bloom and blossom through PC pro-activity or they will be peripheral or, many times, I find no need for them as the PCs have fully wrested control of the motion of the fiction (which is what I'm hoping for...the skeletal arcs and the scenes are just a means toward the end of them wresting control of the fiction). Themes + Milestones/APs + Quest Rewards assist me in mechanically incentivizing the players investing in and actualizing their chosen archetype/theme. @pemerton has expressed similar usage with the Paladin and Invoker in his group (although he doesn't use Themes as they post-date his current campaign).
 

pemerton

Legend
every single group I have ever seen believes or claims to be driven by story...regardless of the truth of that claim. A DM wanting to play to that false expectation can easily be accused of railroading.
This is why I think that the key word in the Forge's "Story Now" is not "Story" but "Now". Every RPG experience will generate a story - it's all about how that generation relates to the purposes and the procedures of play.

I suspect that some of what drives railroading is the difficulty of preparation.

<snip>

Sometimes, I think that "railroading" is merely lack of prep time combined with a DM misinterpreting the party's interests.

<snip>

Which is not to say that railroading isn't real, or doesn't happen for other reasons.
I think the felt need for preparation can be part of it, yes.

I think there's also a connection here to worldbuilding. One thing that I have found can help with more improvisational GMing is to have the worldbuilding in pretty broad-brush terms (the Points of Light presented in Worlds and Monsters, the 4e PHB and MM, and the DMG is fine for me), and then do a lot of spontaneous creation of detail as play unfolds.

This is the sort of thing that in Burning Wheel is mechanically formalised via Circles mechanics (players get to create NPCs) and Wise mechanics (players get to create backstory) but, especially if the group are comfortable together, you don't need those sorts of mechanics to have just-in-time world creation (whether done mostly by the GM, as in my case, with a few key bits of input from the players, or whether done with the players taking a bigger role, as in BW or the discussion in the 4e DMG2).

Conversely, a GM who has put a lot of effort into worldbuilding from the get go may well have bits of the world that s/he wants to show off in play. If the world also contains a built in thematic or moral orientation that the players have to buy into if they are to engage it at all, then I think railroading can easily ensue.

As you know, I'm a little bit down on 2nd ed AD&D for its railroading tendencies, and that opinion is definitely shaped by some bad experiences, with GMs wanting to dominate the unfolding plot in the interests of telling their version of the incipient story.

The most prolonged example of this that I endured involved a GM with a well-developed homebrew world, a prophecy, and a PC played by a somewhat irritating player who was (of course) at the centre of the prophecy. From that description alone you can probably see all the hallmarks of impending disaster! What was interesting was that the group was quite big (seven players, I think, or six at least) and as a result we were able to build up our own story dynamics via intra-party roleplay. Which kept the campaign alive for six months or so, but also led to a bit of a battle-of-power between players and GM, which the GM resolved in his favour (for the short term, at least) by time-travelling the whole party 100 years in the future, thereby invalidating all the background that we players had mutually created and that underpinned the intra-party dynamics. I left the game not long after (partly because of the change, partly because I got a job that reduced my free time), and I think it ended shortly after that.

The speed and ease of DM prep in 4e allows you to do this in ways that earlier editions would make nearly impossible and certainly impractical. Which is what, I think, leads to the mostly static dungeon style of adventure for old-schoolers. The DM can prep a horde of adversaries, a host of encounters, sometimes connected by a few conditionals (both explicit choices and simple geography) and then leave it up to the party to "solve" it. Reducing the ability of the party to "go off the map" reduces the chances of the DM getting caught with his pants down
I think the "puzzle solving" dimension you allude to here is also an important element of at least some old-school play (Tomb of Horrors and White Plume Mountain are poster children for it, I think). Gygax talks a bit about this in his concluding section of his PHB, and Lewis Pulsipher in the early days of White Dwarf used to emphasise it very much - the the GM must build the dungeon and then not toy with it (especially not on the basis of narrative considerations) because this will undermine the ability of good playes to get and advantage by using divination, scrying etc.

Whereas in my game the "puzzle" dimension is more about how to leverage the unfolding situation in the direction you (the player) want: so it's more about engaging the mechanics to move the story forward in a certain fashion, then about scoping out the "dungeon" to maximise your prospects of a successful foray.

These are very different playstyles, and they take different approaches towards preparation, but I don't think preparation is at the heart of it. You can run improv/just-in-time D&D using AD&D mechanics (I've done it, especially in Oriental Adventures), though it doesn't support this approach as well as 4e does.

In groups like mine, I think some of their reactions are learned from bad experiences. They are even skittish about things like Action Points (or its cousins), or any other open admission that we are playing a story or that anything like Narrative Causality might be functioning.
4e isn't unique in the way it tries to handle this issue, but it is unique among editions of D&D. The transparency of the system - power mechanics, item mechanics, earning and spending action points, DC and damage ranges, etc - all combine to give the players a confidence that the narrative cauality won't hose them or their PCs. And you don't even have to spell all this out - I think that the confidence in the mechanics to give ever fair points of input, and therefore the requisite degree of control over their PC's fate, emerges out of play. Partly because the players encounter it in their own resource management. Partly because the GM has such clear mechanical support for saying "yes" or "yes, but". And partly because the resolution mechanics tend to ensure that no single choice or decision by player, or single adjudication by the GM as to who the monster attacks or where it moves, bring everything crashing down. So the play iteslf is transparent and forgiving in this particular way.

AD&D's lack of this sort of transparency is what I think makes it less reliable as a system for this sort of play, but I'd be interested to hear how you (or others) worked around its deficiencies.

I think D&Dnext could achieve something similar to 4e, in this respect at least, if bounded accuracy works out as I hope it will, but at the moment I am a bit uncertain - and the "rulings, not rules" rhetoric fuels my uncertainty, because to me it focuses too much on loosening things just where they need to be tight if players are to confidently take risks (eg DC setting, damage values, etc) rather than getting the GM's adjudication where is can be put to best use (framing challenges, determining narrative consequences, elaborating complications, etc).

1) The DM is not particularly good at impromptu content creation or has poor improvisation skills. Railroading is a "safe", risk averse style for such a DM. There is no deep water, so to speak.

2) The DM gains his fine by authoring/actualizing a story. Without such editorial control they wouldn't be in the chair. He gives a tacit nod to mechanical influence and creates the illusion of PC agency but in truth its just a dog and pony show. Further, oftentimes, the players will be willing co-conspiriators to this DM Force (wink, wink, nudge, nudge, say no more, say no more) as they understand that without the DM's interestes sated (story-time), either they may be forced to assume the mantle or the group might be a ship without a sail.

3) The players actually want a railroad. They do not want to make decisions and/or are paralyzed by parsing the content at the table and the subsequent pro-activity required to move the plot themselves. They effectively want to roll dice, listen to a story composed by a DM and perhaps imagine their characters (or attempt to immerse within) participating.
[MENTION=386]LostSoul[/MENTION] has posted sometime in the past few months (I can't remember which thread) about your number 3 - players who don't want to make choices, and who prefer to "immerse" in the story that is being created by the GM in which their PCs figure as "protagonists", in a certain sense at least.

I also think that there is a variant on (3), where the player has been "educated" by other RPGers into thinking that the sort of passive acquiesence you describe is what it takes to be a true RPGer - play your guy, emote your lines, but don't shake up the big picture.

In this approach, as in your (2), the tacit nod to mechanical influence may play a role, but it is clearly subordinated to the GM's control over plot: for example, if the PCs are losing a fight the GM won't necessarily fudge, but will introduce some NPC or comparable device to make sure that the direction of things is not derailed.

One thing I find interesting is to see where other RPGers draw signficant boundaries, and how that often differes from my own boundary-drawing tendencies. For instance, the first time I mentioned how I handled the one (and to date only) TPK in my 4e game - namely, the PCs regain consciousness in the goblin prison (except for the one whose player wanted a new PC, and for the one who was really dead - that one literally came back to life at the will of the Raven Queen) - some posters here talked about railroading, or invalidating player choices, and invoked the spectre of deus ex machina.

Whereas it seemed to me (and still seems to me) that my way of handling the TPK - given that it had already been established that the goblins liked to take prisoners - preserved the narrative significance of the loss in combat, while also preserving the continuity in the campaign that was desired by all participants.

In other words, for me what is significant is not the similarity between the deus ex machina and my own approach - PCs continue to live, and thus the campaign goes on - but the similarity between just letting the TPK stand and my own approach - the direction of the narrative changes unexpectedly in response to (i) choices made by the players, and (ii) the consequences (in this case, failure) that resulted from those choices.
 

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