Leisure Time: Orcs, Humans, Elves, Dwarves

[Jeph]

And the Aztecs and Peruvians had culture, too. Written in stone. And ancient traditions. Yet, in both cases, about a thousand psychotic Spaniards conquered these nations of millions. The same could be said of Britian in China.

The reason the Aztecs and co. fell was not political machination, they thought cortez was a GOD and they had no disease resistance. The Conquistadors (or however you spell it) did a pretty good job of introduceing European diseases, what with bringing pig herds accross the continent. Now, the dwarves know enough of others not to think that every dude with a hammer is Moradin, and they are extreemly resistant to diseases (high con AND a racial bonus). Jürgen, you really could have found a better example.

 

[Jürgen Hubert]

Now, the dwarves know enough of others not to think that every dude with a hammer is Moradin, and they are extreemly resistant to diseases (high con AND a racial bonus). Jürgen, you really could have found a better example.

Ah, a challenge!

OK, let's look at the dwarves. They do have long life spans and are highly resistant to disease.

But they are also known for their love of hard work, have a -2 Charisma modifier, and live in mostly monoracial mountain fortresses.

In other words, these guys are not manager material! They don't let other guys do all the work for them, and steal all the credit, they actually do the work themselves!

From this we can conclude that dwarves Have No Life (and that's the explanation for their low birth rates!) and are probably engineers or something. Which fits their description rather well.

Now elves, on the other hand - they have the sweetest set-up...

 

[Jürgen Hubert]

Please review pages 147 through 149 of your Psionics Handbooks.

WHY THE HECK DON'T THESE GUYS RULE THE UNIVERSE?

They gave innate psychic tallent, agility, durrability, and intelligence. Not to mention a drive to take things over and a good rolemoddel (the mindflayers). From what I've read in the MotP and PsiH, these dudes have plenty of free time to ponder the workings of the universe--hell, the allready understand the workings of the universe and went off to settle in it's remotest places.

The githyanki might be intelligent, but they don't have that much common sense (low Wisdom). Plus, they don't have enough empathy to work well enough with other members of their race, their numbers are much smaller than humans, and that comment that "it is not uncommon for gythyanki to show more regard for their panoply than for a mate" hints why their birth rates probably aren't too high, either.

Innate powers aren't everything, you know...

 

[LoneWolf23]

OK, let's look at the dwarves. They do have long life spans and are highly resistant to disease.

But they are also known for their love of hard work, have a -2 Charisma modifier, and live in mostly monoracial mountain fortresses.

In other words, these guys are not manager material! They don't let other guys do all the work for them, and steal all the credit, they actually do the work themselves!

From this we can conclude that dwarves Have No Life (and that's the explanation for their low birth rates!) and are probably engineers or something. Which fits their description rather well.

Now elves, on the other hand - they have the sweetest set-up...

Hmm... Although I agree with part of your analysis, the "Not Manager Material" thing and the "Have no Life" bit I disagree on. First of all, Dwarves are not all condemned to have low Charisma... And those amongst their fellows who have such a Higher Charisma will probably be made into Foremen, Commanders or Head Priests.

Since all Dwarves are highly focused on hard work, their society is Caste-Oriented with a focus on making the organisation so efficient, it practically runs itself. Hence their love of rigid caste systems, ancient traditions and rituals. It lets them concentrate more on the Hard Work of Mining, Building, Forging and Fighting...

As for the "Have no Life" bit, Let's not forget that Dwarves are also noted Beer-brewers, and are traditionally known for being raunchy little buggers who tried to buy the "attentions" of young human maidens. You know a lot of Blue-Collar workers who don't like to spend their off-hours drinking and wenching? Dwarves are generally married by age 60 (young by Dwarvish standards), so you know they have someone to turn to on a regular basis (provided they're not divorced or widow/ers).

As for the "Low Birth Rate" thing that plagues both Dwarves and Elves, I say it's probably a result of their extended lifespan... Look at shorter-lived Humanoids like Orcs and Goblins... They seldom live longer then 20-30, if they don't die much sooner. Hence, their birthrate is through the roof just so the species doesn't die off.

Elves and Dwarves, on the other hand, not only have a long natural lifespan, they're generally very fit to survive (Dwarves with their Toughness and Metalwork, Elves with their woodmen skills and magic), so they don't really need a high birthrate to keep the race going...

 

[Chrisling]

Well, I think the main explanation is that elves train their children for nearly a century before they even let them in the vincity of orcs. Consequently, most elves can whack the butt of most orcs.

(And yes, that means that I think the demographics in the DMG are whacked when they deal with nonhuman settlements. But that's a discussion for another thread...)

But the actual numbers of people good at things is incredibly relevant to this discussion. One of my presumptions is that, y'know, the average member of the species in question looks pretty much like they do in the MM. And out of the MM, well, the elves would get their asses smeared from here to kingdom come by orcs. I shudder to think what would happen if they had to fight hobgoblins. ;p

The notion that elves learn really, really, really slowly is sorta backed up by the PHB, where a century old elf is . . . first level.

If you ignore that, well, sure, my argument starts to fall apart -- tho' not completely. I mean, if we're going to say that elves are higher level because of their long lives, I think we'd have to take the culture of the orcs into account, too. They are, as most people agree, incredibly warlike. Which means they collect huge amounts of experience points quickly. The orc survivors are likely to be hard as adamantine.

Still, they have awfully long life spans. And an interest in wizardry that none of the other sylvan races seem to have. And "wizardry + interest in nature = interest in magcial genetic engineering" doesn't seem too much of a jump to me.

I concede this. It's certainly possible. Of course, the problem with modifying creatures that are intelligent is that they might come to understand that their condition is slavery and resent it -- and act accordingly. Like shoggoths uprising against the Old Ones.

It also raises a lot of moral questions about whether slavery can ever be practiced by good people. My gut says "no," even if the slave is a willing one.

Could they, though? Sure, they can kick orc butt, and even come up with pretty good riddles and such, but do they really understand orcs and other humanoids who threaten the forest?

Plus, remember that treants are, basically, trees. Trees don't have a hierarchy. Trees don't have organisation. Elves, being descendants from the same stock of primates that spawned humans, understand and have both. And that's why they ultimately make better defenders of forests than treants.

And if the elves proclaim themselves to be the "lords of the forest", the treant might just shrug and say: "As long as outsiders who want to kill the trees are kept away, I am cool with it." After all, what are the disadvantages for the treants in this set-up`?

Do elves understand orcs and other humanoids? Orcs live fast and die hard. They go out in blazes of glory, their fist raised against the world. That's a pretty alien mindset for a creature that can expect to live a thousand years and believes in harmony with nature.

And who says that treants don't have a hierachy? Why not? Because they're trees? Well, they're incredibly wise, brilliant trees that walk around. I think there is a huge difference between a treant and the elm growing in the yard.

So, while it is possible a treant might shrug when elves proclaim themselves the lords of the forest, they might also tap that elf's skull against the nearest rock and politely remind them that the elves are the newcomers and proclaiming themselves forest lords is not what the FOREST wants. After all, the forest *is* the trees.

The disadvantage of the elves running this, too, is that they might botch the job. It's one thing to say, "Hey, I'm in charge, here." It's quite another to do the job well. Treants might not believe elves have the skill to do it -- I think it's a legitimate question, too. Elves, in D&D games, just aren't particularly special or capable.

*waits for the ball to be in my court*

 

[Chrisling]

The reason the Aztecs and co. fell was not political machination, they thought cortez was a GOD and they had no disease resistance. The Conquistadors (or however you spell it) did a pretty good job of introduceing European diseases, what with bringing pig herds accross the continent.

This isn't precisely true. While the ravages of disease did decimate the Aztec and Peruvian populations, the populations were still well away and large to to kill the Spaniards if they had known how. There were literally thousands of Aztecs or Peruvians for each Spaniard.

To focus on the Aztecs, what Cortez specifically and very knowingly did was unite the tribes that had been conquered by the Aztecs and urged them to rise up at the same time and form an army behind him. It was the weakness of the Aztec political system that this was possible -- the Aztec garrisons in the conquered territories were completely unable to handle the job of a real local rebellion, much less one aided by the canny Cortez. Montezuma would have fallen regardless of the disease factor, which is overplayed (because the disease weakened his allies as much as his enemies). This is all pretty standard history.

Pizarro in Peru did a play by play repeat of Cortez -- and it worked. All the same tricks that Cortez used in Mexico worked in Peru. It's actually sorta disappointing to read about because it really does show the difference in the technology of power between to pre-Columbians and the Europeans.

 

[Chrisling]

...And Orcs and Goblinoids have generations about as short or shorter then Humans, so they'll change their ways even more quickly. It's just that they seldom learn history, so they repeat if often...

As an interesting point, it could be argued that it is peoples without a long history that are the real movers and shakers of history. By casting off history, one is allowed tremendous creativity in handling present problems.

 

[Jürgen Hubert]

Hmm... Although I agree with part of your analysis, the "Not Manager Material" thing and the "Have no Life" bit I disagree on. First of all, Dwarves are not all condemned to have low Charisma... And those amongst their fellows who have such a Higher Charisma will probably be made into Foremen, Commanders or Head Priests.

They still get a -1 on all Charisma-related tasks when compared to humans, though... The only reason why they succeed at all as managers is because they only boss around members of their own race - unlike elves, who seem to boss almost everyone around!

Since all Dwarves are highly focused on hard work, their society is Caste-Oriented with a focus on making the organisation so efficient, it practically runs itself. Hence their love of rigid caste systems, ancient traditions and rituals. It lets them concentrate more on the Hard Work of Mining, Building, Forging and Fighting...

Notice the focus on rigid caste system. That might work well when everything works according to the latest 100-year plan, but isn't a testament to their adaptivity...

And, of course, their leisure time comes up too short, which is kind of the main topic of this thread.

As for the "Have no Life" bit, Let's not forget that Dwarves are also noted Beer-brewers, and are traditionally known for being raunchy little buggers who tried to buy the "attentions" of young human maidens. You know a lot of Blue-Collar workers who don't like to spend their off-hours drinking and wenching? Dwarves are generally married by age 60 (young by Dwarvish standards), so you know they have someone to turn to on a regular basis (provided they're not divorced or widow/ers).

Uhm... you do know that drinking beer reduces potentcy, don't you?

So yes, I wouldn't put it past the little buggers to frequently lust after members of the opposite sex - but do they actually know what to do with them? Or are they even able to do anything with them? Questions, questions... that I won't answer in this post.

As for the "Low Birth Rate" thing that plagues both Dwarves and Elves, I say it's probably a result of their extended lifespan... Look at shorter-lived Humanoids like Orcs and Goblins... They seldom live longer then 20-30, if they don't die much sooner. Hence, their birthrate is through the roof just so the species doesn't die off.

It's still strange, though. After all, here we have several different species competing for the same environment. That "low birthrates because of long life spans" argument would work if these species were self-regulating in their numbers - but here we have several other species who are all to willing to do the "regulation" for them!

Elves and Dwarves, on the other hand, not only have a long natural lifespan, they're generally very fit to survive (Dwarves with their Toughness and Metalwork, Elves with their woodmen skills and magic), so they don't really need a high birthrate to keep the race going...

This works until a more aggressive species with higher birthrates show up. Then...

Oops. They are getting crowded out. Usually by The Usual Suspects, meaning humanity.

Which should make the prospect of a Wild Hunt against humans appealing to elves, but there's just to many humans around. So expect some of the more radical elves to start experimenting with targeted plagues (I said they were good with magical genetic engineering).

Dwarves, on the other hand, have to worry more about orcs and goblins, who thrive in the same ecological niche - few humans seem to want to settle in mountain areas. Thus, we get all those interesting darwinian experiments of dwarven strategy, resolve, and trapmaking skills against orcish breeding strategies. It's still out who is winning...

 

[Zappo]

...that comment that "it is not uncommon for gythyanki to show more regard for their panoply than for a mate" hints why their birth rates probably aren't too high, either.

And looking at their women, I can see why. Eeeeech!

 

[Jürgen Hubert]

But the actual numbers of people good at things is incredibly relevant to this discussion. One of my presumptions is that, y'know, the average member of the species in question looks pretty much like they do in the MM. And out of the MM, well, the elves would get their asses smeared from here to kingdom come by orcs.

(Checks MM)

Hmmm. I notice that "standard elves" use longbows, while orcs only have javelins. Plus, elves are smarter and wiser than orcs, which suggests to my mind that elves would do the sensible thing and not charge the orcs with their brandished swords, but hide in the bushes and kill them off with arrows at a long range.

Sure, in melee combat your basic orc has a good chance of killing a "standard elf" (though even that depends on who rolls the better initiative - and again, the elf has the advantage here). But that's only relevant for peopl who view single combat with members of uncivilized races as something desireable.

I shudder to think what would happen if they had to fight hobgoblins. ;p

Yup, hobgoblins are underappreciated (and I have made them a full-fledged player character race in my setting to combat this). It is easy to see why they and elves are such mortal enemies...

The notion that elves learn really, really, really slowly is sorta backed up by the PHB, where a century old elf is . . . first level.

Hmmm... They have a really sheltered childhood?

If you ignore that, well, sure, my argument starts to fall apart -- tho' not completely. I mean, if we're going to say that elves are higher level because of their long lives, I think we'd have to take the culture of the orcs into account, too. They are, as most people agree, incredibly warlike. Which means they collect huge amounts of experience points quickly. The orc survivors are likely to be hard as adamantine.

Sure, the old orcs are tough as nails, and understand the value of the right tactics in warfare.

Unfortunately, they are surrounded by hordes of younger orcs who don't...

I concede this. It's certainly possible. Of course, the problem with modifying creatures that are intelligent is that they might come to understand that their condition is slavery and resent it -- and act accordingly. Like shoggoths uprising against the Old Ones.

Elder Things, actually. And yes, that was a sloppy piece of work (leaving aside the mistakes they made when they let those hairy monkeys loose...).

It all depends on how diligent the creator race in question is. If they regularily check up on the genes that say: "You find the pheromones emitted by elves incredibly sexy and will do everything they say", then there shouldn't be any major problems - apart from a giant monster now and then that goes off to eat a human village or something.

It also raises a lot of moral questions about whether slavery can ever be practiced by good people. My gut says "no," even if the slave is a willing one.

Well, is it allowable for good people to have serfs to lord over?

And what about kings, anyway? Did the people vote them into office? If not, what gives them the power of life and death over their subjects?

Do elves understand orcs and other humanoids? Orcs live fast and die hard. They go out in blazes of glory, their fist raised against the world. That's a pretty alien mindset for a creature that can expect to live a thousand years and believes in harmony with nature.

Well, at least they are both part of the animal kingdom. And mammals as well. So there's probably some common base there...

And who says that treants don't have a hierachy? Why not? Because they're trees? Well, they're incredibly wise, brilliant trees that walk around. I think there is a huge difference between a treant and the elm growing in the yard.

Well, humans are fairly bright monkeys. But monkeys got organisation and hierarchy before they ever recieved what we so laughingly call intelligence.

Intelligence, at least in a fantasy world, does not automatically mean you will want to be part of any hierarchy.

(Realistically some kind of organisation is probably required for a species evolve to sapience. But if you are going for this level of realism, then you will have to ask yourself how plant matter could ever evolve brain tissue, and then you will have to ask more and more questions unless you just assume that treants are an artificially created species - which just proves my point. )

So, while it is possible a treant might shrug when elves proclaim themselves the lords of the forest, they might also tap that elf's skull against the nearest rock and politely remind them that the elves are the newcomers and proclaiming themselves forest lords is not what the FOREST wants. After all, the forest *is* the trees.

Possible? Yes. Likely? No. After all, the treants are smart and wise enough to recognize a setup that is to their advantage - and it is.

The disadvantage of the elves running this, too, is that they might botch the job. It's one thing to say, "Hey, I'm in charge, here." It's quite another to do the job well. Treants might not believe elves have the skill to do it -- I think it's a legitimate question, too. Elves, in D&D games, just aren't particularly special or capable.

Well, they do seem to be living in the forests, which means that at least some of them know what they are doing...

*waits for the ball to be in my court*

You got it.