Leisure Time: Orcs, Humans, Elves, Dwarves

[Jürgen Hubert]

Dwarven propaganda.

Are you quite certain about this?

And incidentally, did you know that certain European legends refer to dwarves as "dark elves"?

These kind of things make you wonder...

 

[Jeph]

If we're getting into European legends, go skim Nordic legend for the Drow. Not exactly elves with darker skin, eh?

 

[Jürgen Hubert]

For example, if I was some treant, why would I accept a <i>subservient</i> position to an elf? The average treant can pretty easily wipe an elvish village from the map. The treant is smarter, wiser, more charismatic, tough, and in pretty much all ways better than the elves you'd have them serve.

You are assuming that the treants have ambitions beyond "protecting nature". And call whatever you want to call elves, they are certainly "nature-loving" (and no knothole jokes, please). In the end, treants might simply believe that the elves are better for nature than all the other populous sapient species - and that would be true. You know what humans can do, and let's not dwell on the amount of tree-cutting that folks like dwarves, orcs, etc would do if they were unchecked.

No, as far as the treants are concerned, the elves would serve best as the defenders of the forest. And in turn, it would only make sense to make their lives a bit easier so that they can concentrate on keeping humans and other pests out. Everything in nature is interlocked, don't cha know?

The same is roughly true of dryads. The average dryad wouldn't serve the elves, the elves would serve the dryads -- enraptured by her awesome charisma.

Again, you are assuming that dryads have interests beyond keeping their little part of the forest tidy and maybe shagging a handsome male or two now and then (and here is another reason why elves have so low birth rates: The male elves regularily visit dryads, and thus don't feel any need to go into bed with female elves! Presumably, any sexually frustrated female elves visit satyrs, which are infertile with elves...).

You know, this situation somehow reminds me of Transhuman Space, a science fiction background where many nations create so-called "bioroids", biological androids that are mentally conditioned to be obedient to their creators. There are bioroids for almost any job, and most of them are pretty enthusiastic about them.

And seen in this light, the setup with all the sylvan creatures becomes pretty damn suspicious. Perhaps all of them were created a long time ago by elven archmages! (Why do you think is there an "Origin of Species" spell in the Epic Level Handbook, hmm?)

I mean, you have the treants and other plant creatures for anything dealing with organics, dryads and satyrs as extremely eager sex slaves, and so on. No chains are required - the "slave races" would have it no other way. They might even be very smart and powerful, but that's OK - as long it is against their innermost nature to act against elves!

And it would make sense from an elven point of view - take a few centuries off to create a slave race that won't actually mind its slavery, and then your species can live millenia of the good life!

And what if there <i>is</i> an unseelie fey world out there, who would just <i>love</i> to enslave the whole elvish race. They would be massively aided if the fey were already in bed with the elves.

In my book, the Unseelie Court simply consists of elves who believe that humans make better playthings than pets.

 

[LoneWolf23]

I agree with Jurgen Hurbert's take on Elves as Feudal Lords of the Forest. And the Treants probably wouldn't argue the point with the Elves, since it means they would have someone else fighting to protect their beloved woods, allowing them to preserve their forces for real emergencies. They certainly might like the company of nature-loving beings like the Elves. Come to think of it, Treants living with Elves makes me think of the Night Elves of Warcraft Three... Living, mobile tree homes, anyone?

What else... Oh yes, Centaurs. They're strong, skilled workers who love nature as much as the Elves do. They would certainly be open to living in an Elven "ruled" kingdom, doing some strong manual labor while the elves used their magic and knowledge to make things easier for them.

After all, the Chaotic Good Elves probably let the people living with them do as they please, with the only form of "goverment" being a sort of "People's Council" where individuals can work out grievances and problems as peacefully as possible.

As for leisure time... Elves love beauty, and spend their time making the world around them more beautiful; arts and crafts, music... Can you imagine Gardening on a scale of Years and Miles?

 

[LoneWolf23]

Secondly, and perhaps more importantly, culture does matter. Because dwarven culture is all stonecutting and metal working, what happens when the dwarves meet a society whose tongues have been sharpened by centuries of debate and brutal political infighting? Might as well hand those Machiavelli trained politicians the keys to the mine . . . .

Oh, but the Dwarves DO have culture... A Culture that's centuries old, with laws and traditions etched in stone (sometimes litterally) and a worldview so conversative, a Dwarf Today is pretty much like a Dwarf one thousand years ago.

As for the Sharp-Tongued devils... Well, like the old Dwarven proverb goes: "After a Philosopher shakes your hand, count your fingers." Dwarves don't trust philosophers and fancy talkers, putting their faith in practical knowledge. They'd look at a fancy talking "Machiavellian" manipulator with a raised eyebrow, then they would continue as they've always done over the ages...

 

[Chrisling]

Oh, but the Dwarves DO have culture... A Culture that's centuries old, with laws and traditions etched in stone (sometimes litterally) and a worldview so conversative, a Dwarf Today is pretty much like a Dwarf one thousand years ago.

As for the Sharp-Tongued devils... Well, like the old Dwarven proverb goes: "After a Philosopher shakes your hand, count your fingers." Dwarves don't trust philosophers and fancy talkers, putting their faith in practical knowledge. They'd look at a fancy talking "Machiavellian" manipulator with a raised eyebrow, then they would continue as they've always done over the ages...

And the Aztecs and Peruvians had culture, too. Written in stone. And ancient traditions. Yet, in both cases, about a thousand psychotic Spaniards conquered these nations of millions. The same could be said of Britian in China.

Having proverbs is one things, but the dwarves -- having few sly-tongued devils and (going with the work-all-day attitude) little in the way of political philosophy. They won't even be able to recognize when they're being tricked.

Dwarven society, as it was described and as you describe it, is stagnant and incapable of change. This is not a benefit in international relations, it is a massive flaw.

 

[Chrisling]

Jürgen,

I'm being <i>conversational</i>. I hope. I mean, I'm not looking to find the one, real truth about any of these critters; I'm sure fantasy gaming is big enough for all our interpretations.

But, like I said, I fully concede that it's possible the elves are the lords of the forest and do things with the full cooperation and assistance of the good sentient plants and fey. Indeed, this would neatly explain why they continue to exist at all, with their generally accepted fertility problems and the fact the average hobgoblin or orc can whack their bootys pretty hard and both species breed <i>much</i> faster.

I just see no really vital reason why elves should be accepted as these forest lords. I mean, sure, if you want to start plundering literature it's comprehensible why the elves are on top of the food chain in the forests -- but D&D elves aren't the elves from legend, or even the elves from Tolkien.

I guess what I'm saying is that, given the actual abilities of the "average" elf, if I were a treant I would think to myself, "I could do this job much better than the elves."

Which is interpretation, of course. YMMV.

 

[Jürgen Hubert]

Jürgen,

I'm being <i>conversational</i>. I hope. I mean, I'm not looking to find the one, real truth about any of these critters; I'm sure fantasy gaming is big enough for all our interpretations.

Hey, no worries. I am fully aware that my interpretations might not fit into all campaign worlds - I'm just throwing out new stuff for discussion...

But, like I said, I fully concede that it's possible the elves are the lords of the forest and do things with the full cooperation and assistance of the good sentient plants and fey. Indeed, this would neatly explain why they continue to exist at all, with their generally accepted fertility problems and the fact the average hobgoblin or orc can whack their bootys pretty hard and both species breed <i>much</i> faster.

Well, I think the main explanation is that elves train their children for nearly a century before they even let them in the vincity of orcs. Consequently, most elves can whack the butt of most orcs.

(And yes, that means that I think the demographics in the DMG are whacked when they deal with nonhuman settlements. But that's a discussion for another thread...)

I just see no really vital reason why elves should be accepted as these forest lords. I mean, sure, if you want to start plundering literature it's comprehensible why the elves are on top of the food chain in the forests -- but D&D elves aren't the elves from legend, or even the elves from Tolkien.

Still, they have awfully long life spans. And an interest in wizardry that none of the other sylvan races seem to have. And "wizardry + interest in nature = interest in magcial genetic engineering" doesn't seem too much of a jump to me.

I guess what I'm saying is that, given the actual abilities of the "average" elf, if I were a treant I would think to myself, "I could do this job much better than the elves."

Could they, though? Sure, they can kick orc butt, and even come up with pretty good riddles and such, but do they really understand orcs and other humanoids who threaten the forest?

Plus, remember that treants are, basically, trees. Trees don't have a hierarchy. Trees don't have organisation. Elves, being descendants from the same stock of primates that spawned humans, understand and have both. And that's why they ultimately make better defenders of forests than treants.

And if the elves proclaim themselves to be the "lords of the forest", the treant might just shrug and say: "As long as outsiders who want to kill the trees are kept away, I am cool with it." After all, what are the disadvantages for the treants in this set-up`?

Well, I am waiting for the next round of counter-arguments.

 

[LoneWolf23]

And the Aztecs and Peruvians had culture, too. Written in stone. And ancient traditions. Yet, in both cases, about a thousand psychotic Spaniards conquered these nations of millions. The same could be said of Britian in China.

Having proverbs is one things, but the dwarves -- having few sly-tongued devils and (going with the work-all-day attitude) little in the way of political philosophy. They won't even be able to recognize when they're being tricked.

Dwarven society, as it was described and as you describe it, is stagnant and incapable of change. This is not a benefit in international relations, it is a massive flaw.

Well, there is a reason why Dwarves are generally isolationists who stay in their Undermountain Forteresses as much as possible. That kinda limits the influx of "New Ideas" a bit.

Just look at Japan's Tokugawa period, for an exemple of how a society can keep up a closed society, living the same way their ancestors did centuries ago while the rest of the world advanced.

...Now, multiply that period by the extended lifespan of the average Dwarf. Human generations last 25 years. Dwarven Generations last about 200 years. That's a lot more time devoted to learning one way to live. Civilizations change mainly from Generation to Generation. Since we humans are shorter lived, we change quickly. But Dwarves and Elves have longer Generations, which means they change their ways much more slowly.

...And Orcs and Goblinoids have generations about as short or shorter then Humans, so they'll change their ways even more quickly. It's just that they seldom learn history, so they repeat if often...

 

[Jeph]

Please review pages 147 through 149 of your Psionics Handbooks.

WHY THE HECK DON'T THESE GUYS RULE THE UNIVERSE?

They gave innate psychic tallent, agility, durrability, and intelligence. Not to mention a drive to take things over and a good rolemoddel (the mindflayers). From what I've read in the MotP and PsiH, these dudes have plenty of free time to ponder the workings of the universe--hell, the allready understand the workings of the universe and went off to settle in it's remotest places.

Just food for thought,

-Jeph