Leisure Time: Orcs, Humans, Elves, Dwarves

[Sir Hawkeye]

This may relate to the general procession of racial golden ages in the stereotypical D&D world.

Typically, those races with the greatest raw natural power peak first. Dragons don't need societies, for example. Their golden age is before the weaklings gang up on them.

Elves are often the first demihuman race to peak. They're physically weak and reproduce slowly, so they must rapidly develop magical and military superiority. The invention of the longbow can probably be attributed to elves in most D&D worlds. Then they get lazy, and they slowly.

Dwarves are physically tough but slow to reproduce, and their chosen environment is dangerous. Dwarves cope by organizing society and developing superior weapons and armor. Classically, they delve too deep and make too many enemies to cope with, and thus begins their decline.

Humans reproduce quickly, are moderately tough, and don't live in particularly dangerous places at first. The don't peak until elven and dwarven civilizations start pushing them around. Typically, humans are still at their peak in the typical campaign.

Orcs, I would judge, are about to peak. Physically tough and fast-breeding but not inclined toward civilization, they manage to hold their own without really developing much. Surrounded by hostile forces of civilization, that may very well change...

Hmm. "Planet of the Orcs" is always a good campaign idea.

 

[Deedlit]

Remember, elves have 110 years to get to level 1, so they can persue PC classes more easily. Besides, in many non-DnD campaign settings, elves tend towards natural magic more then anything, and what druid or shaman can't create it's own food? Elves have so much time to learn cha-based skills, and how to apply them towards certain races. If an elf knows what humans find charismatic, and finds enough time to perfect it, humans will act like they have a charisma score much higher then it actually is, and many types of elves have racial charisma bonuses anyway(I speak of not of standard greyhawk or FR elves, but Middle-earth elves, Lodoss elves, and most any non-DnD elven race at all. The fact that many elf races are fey, and not humanoid as standard DnD has them is also an advantage.)

 

[Chrisling]

Kamikaze Midget,

I'm sensing a bit of projection, here. ;p

Why should orcish culture have boggles with homosexuality? Indeed, given the chaotic evil nature suggested in the basic source material, I think that homosexual rape amongst orcs is probably relatively common. So, the "pansy" comments I think are irrelevant.

I'm also wondering why anyone should accept the notion that orcs don't like beautiful things. Again, is there anything in the basic nature of an orc that says, "Oh, they must hate beauty." I'm not seeing it. Sure, they might have a different aesthetic than people around them -- but to suggest they have <i>no</i> aeshethic isn't something I think is necessarily so.

Also, Michaelangelo spent his time breaking up and heaving around marble. Go ahead, try to kick his ass. I strongly suspect he'll just use the hammer he was using to work his marble to work his attacker's skull.

You also say stuff like, "Remember the legendary battle with the elves." Again, this is not in any of the basic material about orcs. Sure, those stories are common in many fantasy games -- but why should we think they are universal or that the story isn't massively slanted against the losers?

There is also tremendous use for the artifacts of higher culture. Studies of politics such as <U>The Prince</U> could be of tremendous value to an orcish warlord; as much value as to an Italian warlord. History provides valuable lessons taken from the past. Technical skill produces war machines and better arms and armor. Improved farming and ranching allows people to spend more time working on war. Improved architecture allows better castles, not to mention bridges and roads and such. Orcs have all the reason in the world to get, keep and refine their culture; the same reasons the Romans had, and Egyptians, and everyone else . . . including us, today.

*puts tongue firmly in cheek*

 

[Chrisling]

Jürgen and Deelit,

I wasn't as clear as I should have been. When I said that elves "given time" could seduce humanity, I was primarily referring to their huge lifespans.

To Jürgen,

Oh, heck, you could even have the angst, a la <I>Changeling: the Dreaming</i>. ;p

But, seriously, I'm trying to keep to the core books in these discussions for my information. I mean, sure, I could say "IMC, things are so-and-so" but that would be a lecture and not a discussion -- and I've already learned a lot, so I'm real pleased with the way things are going.

 

[Jeremy Ackerman-Yost]

Of course, real cultures evolve. Orcs in particular are portrayed as pretty static in fantasy. Of course, that's because they're the baaaaad guys.

Anyone else think it odd that the Chaotic Evil races are the ones with the most static cultures? Except, of course, for the Chaotic Good Elves, who haven't changed appreciably in eons.

 

[Buttercup]

Even chaotic good elves might still see humans as a human might see a favorite pet...

They would almost have to, really. With their long lives compared to humans, they might get attached, as one does to a beloved dog, but always be aware that the object of your affection is just an animal. Or, in the case of elves, just a human.

 

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

Reichs Elves

I think the real advantage Elves have in the realm of slavery is their long life span. Not only would this major difference in how they and other species live life make it much easier for them to develop the callow disregard necessary to hold sentient species as slaves.

But, it would give the comparative timespan necessary to really pull off breeding programs for things like orcs and humans. Then you could easily reinforce behaviours through early childhood training and brute force genetics.

Look at what we've been able to accomplish with dogs. We've gotten them so mixed up there are some who naturally tend to running and jumping, other who herd, and chihuahuas. All from what we know to have been one homogenous species back before they shacked up with us.

I did an Elven slave holding nation that worked with humans and myconids sometime ago.

Does 3E even have myconids?

I have always thought that Orcs were way undervalued. While, they're intelligence and Charisma may be low they are as wise as anybody else and wisdom is what let's you use your super high strength to kill all the puny humans come nightfall when they're reliance on torches has made them week.

I also thought there was a lot of potential in the small races just because they need less to survive and are both more accurate and harder to hit.

Short is an evolutionary advantage.

BTW: Chrisling, your threads are ruining my geek time. I thought I was over this. I had given up writing ever more notes in my big book of bizarre fantasy ideas based off of my meager knowledge of the humanities.

I was even all set to DM a published setting.

BUT you keep pulling me back in!!! WHY gawd why?!?!?!?

 

[Jeremy Ackerman-Yost]

Re: Reichs Elves

I think the real advantage Elves have in the realm of slavery is their long life span. Not only would this major difference in how they and other species live life make it much easier for them to develop the callow disregard necessary to hold sentient species as slaves.

Ack. That's a pretty depressing perspective. I'd prefer to think their long life spans give them sufficient time to become enlightened and develop compassion for all beings. I'd rather think long life meant more time to redeem yourself than more time to %&$# things up.

 

[Chrisling]

Of course, real cultures evolve. Orcs in particular are portrayed as pretty static in fantasy. Of course, that's because they're the baaaaad guys.

Anyone else think it odd that the Chaotic Evil races are the ones with the most static cultures? Except, of course, for the Chaotic Good Elves, who haven't changed appreciably in eons.

*nods* That's one of the things I was thinking when I was talking about how orcs might get involved in high culture in a big way. There is no "right" way of thinking for chaotic races -- they do what they want. Which means, sure, they fail a lot (orcs not being real bright) but it also means they have more <i>chances</i> to succeed, especially given the prevalent attitude towards orcish breeding.

 

[Chrisling]

Re: Reichs Elves

BTW: Chrisling, your threads are ruining my geek time. I thought I was over this. I had given up writing ever more notes in my big book of bizarre fantasy ideas based off of my meager knowledge of the humanities.

I was even all set to DM a published setting.

BUT you keep pulling me back in!!! WHY gawd why?!?!?!?

On one hand, I'm glad someone is out there, listening. On the other hand, I'm sorry I'm complicating your life.

I'm pulling you in because, uh, my girlfriend is having a tough semester studying physics stuff so she's got a lot of homework to do. So, rather than pester her (thus interrupting her homework) I get online and pester <i>you</i>, apparently. That's the reason.