D&D 5E Leomund's Tiny Hut

[Riley37]

I guess you missed the word "trivialize" in my post. Feel free to edit your post now that I have pointed it out.

Nope. I saw it. Some players enjoy a trivially-easy instance of monster-stabbing. As in, they are reasonably confident that they can stab all the monsters to death, and that none of them will drop to 0 HP in the process... and they still enjoy the fight scene. They might lose a healable amount of HP, but are vanishingly unlikely to lose *all* HP. In other words, a trivially-easy fight scene. All they have to do is insert pointy end into monster, repeatedly. And yet, if there's good story leading into and out of that scene, they're happy to roll the hit and damage dice, round by round.

You've really never seen nor heard of such players?

Another trivially-easy moment:
DM: "You come across ancient runes. You don't even know what language it is, let alone understand it..."
Player "oh, yeah, I know what to do: Comprehend Languages!"
DM: *sigh* Okay, now you can read them. They say..."
The fun of this moment isn't overcoming the language barrier. It's learning what some ancient runes say.

Another trivially-easy moment:
DM: "You are low on HP, you're almost out of spell slots, you all have a level of exhaustion. Keep that in mind."
Player: "I know - we take a long rest!"
DM: "You could do that, if you had a safe place to rest."
Player: "Yeah, no problem, I've got a 5th level slot saved for emergencies, I cast LTH."
The fun of this moment isn't overcoming the question of where to rest. It's preparing a new set of spells.

Another trivially-easy moment:
DM: "The death knights aren't giving up - they pursue you along the tunnel."
PC: "Easy peasy. I cast LTH at a choke point. Pursuit blocked. We casually stroll along the tunnel back to the surface, where we can rest at an inn, buy replacement ammo, and so forth."

Those are all trivial. Some players and some DMs consider them fun, in context. You can define all trivially-easy challenges as DM failure, or as badwrongfun, if you like. I'm baffled as to why you'd do that, though. Explain?

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Actually, I think a lot of the fun in Riley37's is about overcoming the challenges. If you put the runes in Common, you'd still get whatever quantity of fun comes out of knowing what they say, but you'd be missing out on the fun of being able to read secret runes that no one else can read. That's why someone learns Comprehend Languages in the first place, so he can be an awesome Indiana Jones rune-reader. Same thing for almost-out-of-spell points rest time under LTH: preparing the new spells is fun you'd get next time anyway, but saving the party's bacon is fun that comes from LTH overcoming the question of where to rest.

The death knight scenario doesn't work unless you're willing to leave the wizard behind at a choke point (and hope that it was the only way to get to the other side), which, while kind of awesome, doesn't trivialize anything. It's a sacrificial play.

BTW, LTH is 3rd level, not 5th.

P.S. And yes, some players do enjoy playing through easy challenges in detail: not skipping over a combat just like the one you had. Last night, running Noble Rot: "[roll dice] Just as you finish cutting your way through to manor, 4 more Living Vines animate and attack you. Do you want to just lose 2 skeletons like you did last time?" "No, let's play it out." Player knew he would probably lose more than 2 skeletons, but he wanted to play it out anyway. I added up lumping in the four gargoyles on the roof (incidentally making it a double Deadly encounter, 10,800 XP out of 4,800) so it ended up being different and fun (grapple + fly is cool), but one of my two players was quite willing to play through the familiar challenge in detail, which I believe is Riley37's point.

I suspect that this has something in common with the popularity of Facebook games, and 2048, etc.

 

[Riley37]

one of my two players was quite willing to play through the familiar challenge in detail, which I believe is Riley37's point

Indeed it is! That's why I define my success or failure as a DM, by measures other than "do I provide only non-trivial challenges".

Yes, I know that LTH is 3rd level. The PC in question had already expended all their 1st-4th level slots, keeping a 5th-level slot in last-resort reserve. It is possible to use a 5th-level slot to cast a 3rd-level spell such as LTH.

The death knights settle in for a wait, since THEY don't know how long the LTH will stay up. The wizard stays behind for an hour, setting up caltrops and flammable oil, while the rest of the party trudges up the tunnel. The wizard drops a torch, waits a moment for the oil to ignite, and does a dash, collapsing the LTH... and leaving, in its place, flame, smoke, and caltrops. Assuming the death knights have been maintaining a Prepared Action steadily for the last hour, they are either firing a ranged attack through smoke at a fleeing target; or they have a prepared Dash action, which then passes through caltrops and oil (which, while burning, is still slippery). Meanwhile, the wizard has both Dash and base speed, and starts on the "closer to the exit" side of the caltrops and oil. It's still risky, but it's not necessarily a sacrifice play.

Of course, alternate plan, the wizard stays in the LTH for a short rest or a long rest, and does all the same things, plus Expeditious Retreat, Flight, etc. One might wonder what the death knights are up to, during that rest... but one doesn't have to wonder, with one's familiar occasionally peeking out of the LTH to observe them directly.

 

[Dausuul]

The death knights settle in for a wait, since THEY don't know how long the LTH will stay up. The wizard stays behind for an hour, setting up caltrops and flammable oil, while the rest of the party trudges up the tunnel. The wizard drops a torch, waits a moment for the oil to ignite, and does a dash, collapsing the LTH... and leaving, in its place, flame, smoke, and caltrops. Assuming the death knights have been maintaining a Prepared Action steadily for the last hour, they are either firing a ranged attack through smoke at a fleeing target; or they have a prepared Dash action, which then passes through caltrops and oil (which, while burning, is still slippery). Meanwhile, the wizard has both Dash and base speed, and starts on the "closer to the exit" side of the caltrops and oil. It's still risky, but it's not necessarily a sacrifice play.

I'd say that wizard earned every bit of his/her victory.

 

[Riley37]

Actually, I think a lot of the fun (snip) is about overcoming the challenges. If you put the runes in Common, you'd still get whatever quantity of fun comes out of knowing what they say, but you'd be missing out on the fun of being able to read secret runes that no one else can read.

It's the fun of overcoming a challenge (language barrier) by trivial means (in this case, a 1st-level spell, possibly cast ritually from a spellbook). Does that reach agreement?

Is there broad agreement, or full consensus, on exactly what "trivial" means, to all DMs and to all players, in the context of trivial and non-trivial challenges, or what constitutes trivially overcoming a challenge? And is there equal agreement on whether that's a good thing, or a situational thing, or badwrongfun?

 

[Saeviomagy]

Nope. I saw it. Some players enjoy a trivially-easy instance of monster-stabbing. As in, they are reasonably confident that they can stab all the monsters to death, and that none of them will drop to 0 HP in the process... and they still enjoy the fight scene. They might lose a healable amount of HP, but are vanishingly unlikely to lose *all* HP. In other words, a trivially-easy fight scene. All they have to do is insert pointy end into monster, repeatedly. And yet, if there's good story leading into and out of that scene, they're happy to roll the hit and damage dice, round by round.

Your example was weathertop as a trivial combat encounter. An encounter in which:
1. The party would have all died had noone made their knowledge check to find out that ringwraiths fear fire.
2. The party would have all died had they been tagged by the wraiths just once apiece
3. Frodo would have died without a minor quest to save his life, and even afterwards his character is altered by the experience.

Can you see why I assumed you had missed the word trivial?

Your combat encounters aren't trivial - they include the risk of death, loss of resources, and player tactics matter. Most importantly I wouldn't consider them as being trivialized - all of these combat encounters are more-or-less going to play out as initially planned.

A trivial combat encounter might be one where the players all have ranged weapons, and the foe is a guard dog trapped in a 30ft deep pit with steep sides, but that is still not an encounter that has been trivialized.

Your non combat examples are not trivial - their solutions are the result of preparation and smart application of consumable resources.

The runes, resting and death knights encounters are only examples of an encounter being trivialized IF the DM expected them to be more substantial than consumption of a single spell slot. My original meaning was that if the DM reruns the same or a substantially similar encounter with the expectation that next time they will somehow get a better story result, then everyone involved will be disappointed.

Further to that, I don't think it behooves the players to catch an idiot ball and forget that perfect tactic, just because 'it makes a better story'. Because frankly it doesn't, it just makes the character look dumb, and forces the player (and usually all of the players) to metagame. The only way it works in fiction is if the circumstances change enough that the tactic is no longer valid, and that is the DM's bailiwick.

 

[travathian]

Soooooo, back to abusing LTH...

Anyone else come up with some interesting uses for it?

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Soooooo, back to abusing LTH...

Anyone else come up with some interesting uses for it?

Not much to say really. It's an hemispherical fortress that renders you invulnerable to attack from one direction while also granting you advantage on all weapon attacks out of it. It allows you to control everything in your line of sight. It's barely mobile (top speed is ten feet per eleven minutes).

Leomund's Tiny Invulnerable Fortress. What It Says On the Tin.

Discussing ways to subvert it is actually more interesting IMO.

 

[Jaelommiss]

I suppose it could be used to cross small ravines and canyons. Hang the wizard from a rope and secure him to the cliff face seven feet downwards, have him cast LTH. Chuck sand or something on the hut so you know exactly where it is and walk across on it. If it doesn't span the entire distance it can at least be used as a platform to jump from. It can also be used for climbing over obstacles if someone helps you climb up.

It can also be used to block rivers if you have enough wizards. Wizards wade into river, all cast Tiny Hut. The water in their huts can freely flow out, but the water upstream is blocked.

With a generous interpretation of the spell and if you really wanted to, you could use it to create a diving bell or habitable bubble on the bottom of the ocean. The only downside is that people other than the caster would have the return when it is recast or get locked out, and the caster cannot leave.

Depending on your views of what happens when an invulnerable barrier of force manifests in the middle of objects, you might be able to use it for cutting objects, destroying artifacts, executing people you don't like, felling trees, and cutting holes in buildings.


This spell, like most other spells that don't proscribe the effects exactly, is exactly as useful as the player imagines and the DM allows.

 

[Moorcrys]

Can't the Tiny Hut be dispelled automatically using dispel magic from 120' away?

How low is the magic in your low-magic setting - that's a spell on every single spell list except for the Ranger's. No shamans, witch-doctors, priests, warlocks, oathbreaker paladins, druids, bards, or sorcerers in the invading army?

If the setting is that low-magic, I'd take the time to go through the spell lists and disallow spells that go against the flavor of an extremely low-magic setting, including Tiny Hut.