D&D 5E Less killing

[Blue]

This is a bias inherent in the system. Without making judgements on it, D&D has always kept some of it's wargame roots that combat is considered not just a valid way to overcome opposition, but the primary way. Before disagreeing, think of how much of the PHB is devoted to combat-focused aspects, from HPs to AC to over 80% of class features, etc. Take out all of the combat support material from the Monster Manual and how much mechanics do you have left?

Combat is the longest single mechanical aspect of the game - not saying it takes up the most time of a session, but when it does happen it takes more time on mechanics then any other part of the game. It very much seems that every class is designed to work in combat so players aren't left out and bored during this lengthy process, as well as that it is a (or even "the") primary way of overcoming challenge.

There are other systems that don't have this conceit. Look at FATE - at any point you can declare your character is out - and you get to narrate what that looks like. And if you are taken all the way out before then, all that means is that the GM gets to narrate what that looks like - you could be captured, etc. Death need not be on the table.

 

[Micah Sweet]

This is a bias inherent in the system. Without making judgements on it, D&D has always kept some of it's wargame roots that combat is considered not just a valid way to overcome opposition, but the primary way. Before disagreeing, think of how much of the PHB is devoted to combat-focused aspects, from HPs to AC to over 80% of class features, etc. Take out all of the combat support material from the Monster Manual and how much mechanics do you have left?

Combat is the longest single mechanical aspect of the game - not saying it takes up the most time of a session, but when it does happen it takes more time on mechanics then any other part of the game. It very much seems that every class is designed to work in combat so players aren't left out and bored during this lengthy process, as well as that it is a (or even "the") primary way of overcoming challenge.

There are other systems that don't have this conceit. Look at FATE - at any point you can declare your character is out - and you get to narrate what that looks like. And if you are taken all the way out before then, all that means is that the GM gets to narrate what that looks like - you could be captured, etc. Death need not be on the table.

Yeah, if you avoid combat in D&D, you are rendering large portions of the character's mechanical options useless. If I dont want to fight, I play another game.

 

[Lanefan]

Yeah, if you avoid combat in D&D, you are rendering large portions of the character's mechanical options useless.

Agreed, but when playing with young kids* one can intentionally lean hard into Combat as Sport - knightly jousts, tests of valour, fights to first blood rather than death. that sort of thing - rather than Combat as War. This keeps those mechanical options useful.

Then, as the kids get older you can bring more of the War element in.

* - personally, I've never seen D&D as being a game for young kids in the first place; but that's another issue entirely.

 

[TerraDave]

Its an issue. Though I now see lots of media with comparable body counts. D&D's influence?

The down not dead at 0 rule is appropriate for a supers-game, or if you like the A-team from the 1980s. (and means when you do choose to kill something, you are more of a murderer). But it could be OK for some tables.

The real issue is all the attacking with mortal weapons that would normally kill. Thats the heart of it, and the heart of the game.

 

[GMMichael]

Agreed, but when playing with young kids* one can intentionally lean hard into Combat as Sport - knightly jousts, tests of valour, fights to first blood rather than death. that sort of thing - rather than Combat as War. This keeps those mechanical options useful.

This. There are uses for the combat rules (ostensibly, only 1/3 of the game) besides combat.

But put on a popular kids' show. Odds are that there's zero killing (unless it's Squid Game). Unhappy consequences are embarrassment or disappointment, not death. And fancy rules aren't needed. Try renaming the combat rules: hit points become humor points, and armor class becomes maturity class. You can still use the combat rules without everyone getting Bloodied (um, or did 5e pass on that 4e hand-me-down?).

 

[John R Davis]

Yup. Try ' not DND' this way you:
-Are not having to fiddle rules which can add complications
-You are throwing some dollars at another game, which can only be a good thing.

 

[Ath-kethin]

This is why 5E needs functional morale rules. The simple one from BECMI (2d6) or the more complicated one from 2E (2d10) would work great. Morale checks allow a reasonable chance for enemies, and NPC allies, to break from combat and either flee or surrender. Almost nothing should fight to the death, and PCs generally only do it because there's so many ways for them to either avoid death, or come back from it.

I just use the morale rules on page 273 of the 5th Edition DMG:

MORALE
Some combatants might run away when a fight turns against them. You can use this optional rule to help determine when monsters and NPCs flee.

A creature might flee under any of the following circumstances:
• The creature is surprised.
• The creature is reduced to half its hit points or fewer for the first time in the battle.
• The creature has no way to harm the opposing side on its turn.

A group of creatures might flee under any of the following circumstances:
• All the creatures in the group are surprised.
• The group's leader is reduced to 0 hit points, incapacitated, taken prisoner, or removed from battle.
• The group is reduced to half its original size with no losses on the opposing side.

To determine whether a creature or group of creatures flees, make a DC 10 Wisdom saving throw for the creature or the group's leader. If the opposition is overwhelming, the saving throw is made with disadvantage, or you can decide that the save fails automatically. If a group's leader can't make the saving throw for whatever reason, have the creature in the group with the next highest Charisma score make the
saving throw instead.

On a failed save, the affected creature or group flees by the most expeditious route. If escape is impossible, the creature or group surrenders. If a creature or group that surrenders is attacked by its conquerors, the battle might resume, and it's unlikely that further attempts to flee or surrender will be made.

A failed saving throw isn't always to the adventurers' benefit. For example, an ogre that flees from combat might put the rest of the dungeon on alert or run off with treasure that the characters had hoped to plunder.


It's one of my favorite old school nods from the DMG, and one many people see to miss. While on some level I would prefer for monsters to have an actual Morale score, mechanically making a Wisdom saving throw or Charisma check isn't much different.

 

[Shiroiken]

It's one of my favorite old school nods from the DMG, and one many people see to miss. While on some level I would prefer for monsters to have an actual Morale score, mechanically making a Wisdom saving throw or Charisma check isn't mechanically different.

I tried to use it, and it is very different. The huge randomness of the d20 makes it far too swingy, as opposed to the 2d6 or 2d10 from BECMI and 2E. Additionally, the flat DC:10 doesn't take into consideration the typical courage of each creature, since simple predators are much less likely to stick around than mindless undead. Theoretically the DM could set the DC for each monster, but that goes back to my original issue.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

Just wanted to say, having recently finished reading through the Wild Beyond the Witchlight, it‘s not as simple as choosing to never fight. There are some situations where luck is involved. If the dice don’t go your way, or you choose to walk into the wrong place (sometimes with no reason to expect going there will lead to combat), combat is likely to ensue.

Now, the number of those situations is small, and a DM could change them if they really wanted to guarantee combat would only come about by choice, but by default that isn’t the case.

 

[Aldarc]

Yeah, make it mean “defeated” instead.

...at the insinuation that HP can represent something other than meat.