Let The Players Manage Themselves Part 3, waitaminute...

Once again, being on EnWorld shows me how people who play the same thing can have so vastly different tastes and experiences.

Player-chosen plot-driven sandbox.

The players will choose a theme or long term goal
Wow. It amazes me that you have such motivated players.

Every group I have ran has been sacks of unmotivation. I have to design the campaign, I have to push them in directions, I have to get the players to organize rides with eachother. I had to write their own damn powers on power cards. Forget them deciding on a GOAL or a THEME.

And this has been multiple groups.

But then, I can't ever keep a campaign going before it falls apart due to life for people, so maybe it's just life experiences.

Something else I'm getting the impression of is what people expect, or think the game is About. I've always had the impression that the players (and thus, the characters) are going to win. Their success is all ready pre-written. The only thing that gets in the way is the damn dice. And it's the DM's job to let them win in a way that doesn't look like it's scripted for them to win. But the way people talk here, they want a serious, justifiable chance of just utterly failure.
 

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I have had sandbox style games, RP heavy games, games that come down to being little more then dice rolling killing monster...

All in all the rules never made one lick of diffrence. If I want to tommorro run a Hard Core Monster hunt with pregens named A...B...C...and D. I can run it in WoD. If I want to design a living breathing world and put my PCs init to see what happens I can do that in 4e.


I don't understand what people want 4e to say. "Here are rules for trade agreements between countries"
or maybe "This is how you design an economy"

IF I want to do that I don't need...heck after reading 3e and 3.5 DMGs I don't WANT...WotC help in doing it. I can.
 

I'm curious how those of you who don't agree with the way the games are run approach your own games. "I don't agree with this" and "This isn't how I like my games" is too vague if you don't talk about what you like in games, so here are some questions:

1. What types of game do you run?

A player driven sandbox where I supply the setting and most of the major NPCs and then let the players primarily determine the direction of the campaign via their characters motivations and decisions. Furthermore, there are almost no dungeons and combat makes up between 20-40% of game play with some sessions having no combat at all.

My process for setting up the game is as follows:
I'll start by creating a setting.
- creating the continent(s) and nations,
- determing the deities (including domains, dogmas, tailored spell lists)
- determining how magic will work
- determing the races that will exist
- creating notes about the cultures ( including subsistance patterns, political organization, economy, kinship, social mores, physical descripton, dress, body adornment, religious practices, naming conventions, etc)
- make a list of classes and/or class variants found in each culture
- create some highlights of recent and past events for culture.
- place locations of interests (including important towns and cities)
- create notes about imporant NPCs and organizations for each culture including their goals
- make a list of houserules and supplements that will be used.

Once, I am finished with above, I get together with the players. I provide them with an overview of the setting and cultures along with houserules and a list of the supplements.

The next step is generating a character concept. Individual players find a culture or cultures of interest, I hand out notes on the chose culture and answer questions. I then let them come up with a character concept and ideas for a background and motivations. By this point, the players have a some istrong deas for a character . Often, they grab on to NPCs, organizations and/or events ( past and/or present) to shape their character's background and motivations, but sometimes they have other ideas.

After concept generation is concept approval. Each player approaches me with the character idea. We discuss it and make any necessary tweaks. Sometimes, their idea has a twist that leads to a slight tweak to what I had in mind.

Once the concept, background and motivations are determined, I let them create the character. At this point, I look it over the characters and we determine if any further tweaks are necessasry.

After the characters are built and approved, I'll use their backgrounds and motivations to create an initial adventure to bring the particular party "together" ( Actually, I bring them the character's to a location and let them bring the party together themselves)

Following the initial adventure, the players determine the direction of the campaign through their character's actions. They choose where their characters go. They create allies and enemies.

And, while the players have their own motivations, the world around them still goes on. NPCs have their own motivations. At times, the NPCs actions spark events that cross the PCs path. Whether or not the PCs take notice and investigate is up to the players. I had one campaign, where an old enemy had created a plague and the pc's would occassionally encounter it's victims and the undead spawned from its victims. The PCs really took no interest beyond curing the victims, killing the undead and continuing on to whatever interested them- that is until they realized the plague was spreading toward the homelands of their PCs. Suddenly, their goals was to protect all those NPCs that were intertwined with their backgrounds or whom they had befriended along the way.


2. What is the overarching goal of your game? What feel do you want and what experience should your players have?

Like Irda, I want the players and myself to look back and see a story or series of stories based on the events that unfolded over all the sessions of the campaign.

Furthermore, I agree with him about what it entails for this to happen.

3. Most importantly, what steps do you take to change the way the game plays, and in what way do they contribute to your goal?

With third edition, the changes involved using rules from UA (e.g, class variants, wizard specialist variant abilities, spontaneous divine casting, incantations, death and dying), third party supplements, and a few bits from WOTC supplements (e.g, expanded skill uses, a dozen or so spells, and a few feats at class variants) to find the elements that fit the feel of the setting that I wanted.

Some of the third party material that was important for me included
- Sean Reynold's Fewer Absolutes. I argued for this in my pre-3e questionaire.
- Book of Iron Might (Malhavoc) for it's maneuver system to allow martial characters to be creative on the fly with maneuvers
- Mutants and Masterminds style Hero Points: to provide some protection from the fickleness of the flat distribution of the d20.
- Green Ronin's Master Class Psychic, Shaman, and Witch's Handbooks to fill archetypes that I felt were missing and handled them in a way that fit my aesthetics.
- Artificers Handbook (Mystic Eye Games) to replace the rules for Magic Item creation. I hated XP costs for item creation and casting spells.
- Scrollworks Fatigue and Exhaustion

In addition, I created house rules to fix other elements that I didn't like about 3e including multiclassing and dipping to get proficiency in all armor and weapons or stack multiple good saves in a category.

With 4e, my solution is not to play or run.

4e does a few things that I wanted to see including a) removing the nonbiological aspects of race and turning them into feats; b) the universal save progression; c) the basics of heroic tier multiclassing; d) toning down the spellcasters; e) removes XP costs and level loss; and f) introduces the feywild.

However, upon listing everything that I wanted to change, it became apparent that 4e is not the game for me.

I have a problem with much of the 4e design and philosophy. Imo, they are grating and gets in the way of what I and my friends consider fun. Several of the changes (including implementations of things that I wanted changed) are not to my liking (e,g, per encounter abilties, removal of skill ranks, removal of craft and profession, spell durations, paragon paths and epic destinies) . Furthermore, there are sections where lack of logic/common sense with respect to in game events and setting which leads to disconnect and results in wtf moments which break me from immersion (e.g, the healing rules, per encounter martial/daily martial abilties, daily items, milestones, tripping oozes and flying creatures).

And, honestly, the 4e treatment of magic items and the Armorer's Vault didn't do anything for me- although, the web article on intelligent magic items was really good.
 
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If the game is just a collection of random combats there's no story.

Who here is advocating "a collection of random combats"?


In an RPG no one can say "you're playing your character wrong".

My pet hate is players who let "what their character would/wouldn't do" get in the way of the game:

"Even though X is the best course of action my character would do Y, making our goals ten times harder to achieve."

Dude WTF?!?!? You are the one running your character. Now would be a good time to decide your character has outgrown that particular limitation and do what needs to be done.

Goddamn method actors. Nearly as frustrating as simulationists and their myriad loose threads and unsolved mysteries.


Once the characters are built and approved, I'll use their backgrounds and motivations to create an initial adventure to bring the particular party "together" ( Actually, I bring them the character's to a location and let them bring the party together themselves)

What if they don't?

Do you just simulate the common real-life situation where strangers meet, fail to hit it off, develop mutual mistrust and go their separate ways?

Epic.
 

The advantage to "creating a world that could exist somewhere" is that the results can surprise you.

If you base your game around a story you designed, the story isn't going to surprise you unless you develop amnesia. It may surprise the players - but then again, it may not, especially if they know you well. And it's unlikely to spontaneously surprise them in small ways - when you travel at the speed of plot, you don't stop to look at the roadsigns. The two aren't mutually exclusive, for that matter - you can layer a story on top of a world, and get the benefits of both.

Another reason for putting details into the system rather than just ad-hoc: When the PCs come up with a plan, and the system doesn't have anything to say about it, then as the DM, you're pretty much saying yes or no to it. And if you say "yes" to everything, then there's no point to coming up with good plans when bad ones work just as well. Of course, you can decide what qualifies as a good plan - but the players have no insight into this, so they can't really develop anything independantly.
 

I create locations and populate them with NPCs with motivations, means and goals. Then the PCs enter. How the PCs react to the different NPCs is up to the players, how the NPCs react to the PCs' actions leads to the next interaction. A rather fluid approach, with lots of freedom for player choices, where combat is just one option among many. It's about playing characters in various plots, not about killing things and taking their stuff.
 

The two aren't mutually exclusive, for that matter - you can layer a story on top of a world, and get the benefits of both.

This is the standard narrativist method.

Nobody creates an adventure (or campaign) without first having a world (or at least a portion of one) to set it in.

Narrativism is where a campaign is built around a story that takes place in a setting.

Obviously the more detailed the setting the broader the scope of stories that may take place therein. But at the same time, if a setting is too detailed then there is actually less room for certain stories. This is one reason why so many people were dissatisfied with Forgotten Realms.

Either way, detailing a setting does not require statting out every guardsman or bartender in the land. In fact this is often counter-productive.

Because sometimes yesterday's peasant farmer needs to become today's insane cult leader.
 

Something else I'm getting the impression of is what people expect, or think the game is About. I've always had the impression that the players (and thus, the characters) are going to win. Their success is all ready pre-written. The only thing that gets in the way is the damn dice. And it's the DM's job to let them win in a way that doesn't look like it's scripted for them to win. But the way people talk here, they want a serious, justifiable chance of just utterly failure.

The PC's winning or losing is secondary to allowing them to make choices for themselves and having those choices mean something. If play in a campaign where I know the PC's will win unless our dice really hate us, no matter what we decide to do, then the campaign becomes really less interesting to play.

Speaking for just myself, yes I do want a chance for utter failure. The chance for failure is what makes a success feel like success.
 

The PC's winning or losing is secondary to allowing them to make choices for themselves and having those choices mean something. If play in a campaign where I know the PC's will win unless our dice really hate us, no matter what we decide to do, then the campaign becomes really less interesting to play.

Speaking for just myself, yes I do want a chance for utter failure. The chance for failure is what makes a success feel like success.

I quite enjoy my bumbling parties failures. If they do not complete the modified KotS in a day or two - game time - the shade of Lord Vashna will use the portal and his undead army will stream into the keep and then besiege Ruaron (Winterhaven).

I'm guessing, if that happens, the luckless 'Heroes' will row a little about trying to save the village or high-tailing it out of dodge. If they leave then a couple of random encounters later they will be in Thunderspire.

Of course some refuges may come at a later stage and recognise who they are: 'mercenaries' sent to investigate the keep. :D

Gone off on my own tangent there, anyway I prefer the actions of the party to have a big impact on the story and my 'buzz' is changing the story to accommodate the actions of the characters, it gets my creative juices flowing.
 

Again, ... badwrongfun ... cannot deliver. Doing ... role-playing ... outside of the ... within ... looks like ... confusion. You may not care about... when someone rubs mud in their hair, calls it soup, and cries when the mud manufacturer say its' mud is not fit for consumption.

I say, if that mud is not fit for consumption, then that mud manufacturer is BadWrongFun !!!
 

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