Let us twist the DIALs

[the Jester]

"Advancement via prestige classes"

See, I knew there was something I forgot!

And would it be like 3E (a new class) or 4E (a branching?).

I favor 3e style level-by-level building, where you are about equally effective overall by spending your (let's say) ten levels as:

fighter 10
fighter 5/mage 5
fighter 9/axeman 1
fighter 5/axeman 5
fighter 5/axeman 2/archer 3
fighter 1/mage 1/rogue 1/axeman 7

...or whatever (actually I prefer base classes that top out at lvl 10 or lvl 20, and prestige classes that top at 5th).

Is this possible? I think so, if the axeman gets abilities focused on axes that are as good as, but different from, fighter abilities.

I also like integrating hit point gain into this system- maybe one of the big bonuses of staying a straight fighter is that you get more hps. (In my draft of my homebrewed D&D system, you don't get hps every level, so this is a good balancing point.)

 

[TerraDave]

D20 modern probably came closest to this, very general base classes up to level 10, and a lot happening on the PrC side. Seemed like an interesting approach.

For 3E though, it seemed to work a little better in theory then practice. Very hard to really balance, and deal with spell casters or other kinds of class linked progressions (sneak attack, frexp)

 

[keterys]

Just going to quote the ones I'd want.

point buy or Alt char gen (life path, 0 level test characters, etc)

I'm not a fan of using rolled stats except for one shots, and even then I think you can get the job done with alternate methods like Gamma World's.

Ability scores-->Simple Skills-->More involved Skills
------------------> Skill challenges
------------------> Non combat conflict rules
------------------> Old school, roll less approach

I want them all, depending on the game, adventure, and character. I want instant characters that just use their ability scores and I want folks who can get a bit more complicated.

I've had a lot of fun with in-combat skill challenges in 4E, so I don't want to see those go away.

I'd _really_ like the system to learn a few things about task resolution from other systems like Burning Wheel (see this post).

Standard Races--> Feat customizable races
------------------> Flexible class features
------------------> Variant, non core, races and sub-races
------------------> Themes, origins, backgrounds, etc

I'm a little less sure what's going on in this choice... like you mean flexible race features, I'm guessing? And "feat customizable" races - do you mean lots of feats for each particular race (like 4e) or more generic building blocks anyone can take to say they have a "brutish race" or "tough race" or "sneaky race" or whatever.

Anyhow, I'd prefer flexible build and customize your own races with a few examples that didn't have a strong swing on balance. I would really like people to pick their race more for what is fun and appropriate rather than what is more mechanically optimal. So, huge danger flag if things aren't flexible, since many people only take races that give them the right ability score bumps.

Also, no feats just for specific races and classes. More ways to "get there from here" if you want to be slight variations on normal to fit your build, rather than there being monthly runs on specific races or vast majorities of a class being a certain race just because of one super feat.

... and wow, more to do later. Good idea though

 

[TerraDave]

....
I'm a little less sure what's going on in this choice... like you mean flexible race features, I'm guessing? And "feat customizable" races - do you mean lots of feats for each particular race (like 4e) or more generic building blocks anyone can take to say they have a "brutish race" or "tough race" or "sneaky race" or whatever.

Anyhow, I'd prefer flexible build and customize your own races with a few examples that didn't have a strong swing on balance. I would really like people to pick their race more for what is fun and appropriate rather than what is more mechanically optimal. So, huge danger flag if things aren't flexible, since many people only take races that give them the right ability score bumps.

Also, no feats just for specific races and classes. More ways to "get there from here" if you want to be slight variations on normal to fit your build, rather than there being monthly runs on specific races or vast majorities of a class being a certain race just because of one super feat.

... and wow, more to do later. Good idea though

You caught a typo.

Race mechanics is an issue...the two stat bump thing I think did some damage in that sense in 4E (though making it more flexible undid it, a little). At the same time, things like feats for all and custom races...sound more like options then core.

 

[keterys]

Does it?

Core has a few basic races.

Dig deeper, it reveals they're build-your-own race buckets and easily transferrable.

That's pretty different from the very custom loaded (or, for humans, unloaded in some cases) with random off-things we've largely gotten throughout all editions.

...

For classes, I'd hope for the same. Core is your most basic fighter, but dig deeper and you get all kinds of feats, talents, powers, what have you.

 

[TerraDave]

For fighter...I totally see it.

For race...it seems like something that comes out a few years latter.

 

[keterys]

If it comes out a few years later, that means their initial races aren't designed with it. So it already fails.

All they need to do is make a pretty simple system, and the basic has the four example races. Then they point to the race chapter, show you how races are built, and give a few more examples. Every race fits the pattern - which lets you do stuff like play Captain Carrot: a human who grew up with dwarves, swap one of the human abilities for one of the dwarf abilities, and you're good to go.

 

[steeldragons]

4d6 keep best, in order, is my preference; but I'm okay with any dice-based method of character generation. I will never allow point buy stat gen in my campaign. Never, never, never.

I'm with ya on the point buy. D&D it is not. Plenty of other systems do it. D&D does not. That's why I advocate (what I said above) a set of 4 possible "Ability Generation" methods. Let the DM decide/return more "control" to the DM for the type of game he/she wants to run.

I am not usually as strict anymore with "in order"...wanting my players to be able to choose their classes, not forced to play something they didn't want because their Strength ended up being 17, with everything else lower than 15, and they wanted a wizard. Maybe I'm gettin' "soft" in my advancing age...but I do sometimes miss the "in order" randomness of play.

I do like skill challenges as a framework, but the system needs a major overhaul with better examples and an explicit acknowledgement that the pcs, not the dm, chooses the skills involved; the dm adjudicates how (and if!) they work in the challenge.

That said, I favor a simpler skill system with all skill checks based on ability scores and a secondary skill that gives you a bonus to checks within that skill's purview. Also, I prefer pc-defined secondary skills vs. a list (I have no problem with a pc choosing "rat catcher," "butler", "diplomat", "sage", "farmer", "painter", etc.)

Also good. I'll endorse this (cuz I know how much everyone really needs my approval lol). A Skill based on Ability check with bonus system sounds like it would work out fine for me.

Fewer races without option overload.

yup and yup.

I'm okay with alternative races in other books, as long as it's absolutely clear that the dm is under no obligation to shoehorn them into his game.

Absolutely. Power to the DMs! The more "options" (I'm seeing the term "modularity" thrown around a LOT in these 5e threads) the better.

I favor a very limited list of base classes, with advancement options via prestige class in a very mix & match way. So your base class might be "fighter" and there might be an "axeman" that gives you certain abilities that you cannot otherwise gain.

Not sure, entirely, about this. I would like to get away from/harken back to the "PC having A, single, class." That class should customizable, absolutely. But the days of a character sheet reading four or five different levels in four or five different things, I'd really like to see gone...and I think is potentially more confusing than necessary for beginning/new players and DMs.

"Prestige Classes", sure...I like them and have them in my game. They add some powers, a cool "fluffly" title in the setting world. But ultimately, my "Radiant Servant of Sunny Guy" is still a 7th level Cleric on his/her character sheet, not/as opposed to: "Cleric 5/Radiant Sunny Guy 2" who might someday become "Cleric 5/Radiant Sunny Guy 4/Tanned Beyond Belief 1."

I think 3e got alignments about right, with supernatural creatures resistant to damage unless it was from an opposing alignment, etc.

Makes sense to me. I think, on the "dial" tip of this thread, alignments are best presented a) as optional rules and b)as two or three different usable systems: 9-point, 5-point (like 4e did) and even, maybe, a 3-point (Good/Neutral/Evil or Lawful/Neutral/Chaotic of Basic).

Powers et al are great as an add-on option, but for the base game, I think we need to kill the beast that is option overload and perform a ritual so that it cannot ever return.

Agreed.

3e did a fairly good job with combat stunts like trip, disarm, etc, but they need to be better written with an eye to making sure that no one tactic/feat combo becomes TEH BESTEST (Improved Trip in 3.5, I'm lookin' at you!).

Gonna defer to your surperior knowledge in this area. Sounds good to me though.

Let's go back to the days when if you were almost dead, you weren't perfectly fine the next day, shall we?

AMEN! Can I get a "HalleLUIA!"

The "Fully Recovered after Five Hours!!" thing is great for promoting a certain type of playstyle but utterly eviscerates any hope of a campaign where lingering wounds are a concern.

Yup and yup.

This goes along with 4e's attitude towards resource management in general- "pretty much shine it" - which I also think needs its throat slit.

Don't forget...we need to take its stuff too.

4e got monster creation right, though I miss the complex toolkit of 3e's monster creation medleys. (4 templates, 3 classes, one prestige class and some feat switches, six hours later I have a monster for my high level game!) I'd like to see an alternative toolkit for dms to use, but the standard should be based on the 4e system.

On your own, here. I'm all for a 1e Monster Manual type thing...with simple guideline "options" for customization.

That said, I'm totally in favor of 'classed' npcs working like pcs.

Absolutely, yes.

Default treasure set by DM--> that can sometimes be made or bought
------------------> Formally influenced by PCs
------------------> Cursed
------------------> Intelligent
------------------> Artifact
------------------> Trade goods and non-standard treasure
------------------> Alternate rewards (titles, etc)
------------------> Ray guns and flying cars[/QUOTE=TerraDave;5786145]

Treasure should be meaningful, not assumed, especially magic items. I am okay with pcs having a way to make a few items with meaningful effort- if you want to make a cloak of displacement, you need to go get the displacer beast's hide that you're going to use.

I am totally cool with non-standard, intelligent, cursed, alternative rewards; I am even okay with (limited) sci-fi elements (they are certainly in my campaign!).

I like all of these as add-ons; the base game should retain an elegant simplicity.

Minimal default setting. ESPECIALLY if it's the goddamned Forgotten Realms. In fact, putting the FR into the 'core' books is one of the best ways to get me to not buy 5e (by whatever name).

The 3e MotP did a great job with the planes and cosmology, giving rich levels of detail while still showing alternatives to the "official" arrangement.

There is NO REASON I should have to buy a bunch of FR or DL monsters to get the generic stuff like perytons and death knights. NONE.

I think we are in complete agreement on all of this stuff (though my own homebrew setting does not include sci-fi elements. I also have really no experience adventuring/playing in the FR. So I'll take your word for it.

But as I said above, Power to the DM! . The more "options"/guidelines the better. {EDIT} while avoiding "option overload", of course.[/EDIT]

--SD

 

[bringerofbroom]

4d6, keep best-->point buy
------------------> More generous but random
------------------> 3d6 in order
------------------> Alt char gen (life path, 0 level test characters, etc)

in Core, no stat rolls or points - you have a pick up and play character. changes can be dealt with on levelling up. For more advanced rules, a point buy.


Ability scores-->Simple Skills-->More involved Skills
------------------> Skill challenges
------------------> Non combat conflict rules
------------------> Old school, roll less approach

Skills as a modified ability check.

Standard Races--> Feat customizable races
------------------> Flexible race features
------------------> Variant, non core, races and sub-races
------------------> Themes, origins, backgrounds, etc

Core with standard races, built using a standardised build system available in the advanced rules.

Standard Classes --> Feat customizable classes (--> custom/point buy classes)
------------------> Flexible class features
------------------> Variant, non core, classes
------------------> Variant power sources (psionics, alt magic systems)
----------------(--> see themes above)

Core with standard classes, built using a standardised build system available in the advanced rules.

9 alignments--> that matters somewhat
------------------> Or not
------------------> Or are different

Alignment should be something that is only labelled on the truly extreme ( Demons et al ) but should have a pronounced mechanical effect in that case. Basically, if you are tagged as EVIL, you are a walking zone of unholiness, and vice versa.

Spells for some --> Powers for more
------------------> Combat maneuvers
------------------> Meta-magic
----------------(--> Variant power sources (psionics, alt magic systems)

Yes. But you dont NEED them for a good character. A Core wizard has a few powers ( eg magic missile, mage hand ) that can scale with level or can be added to by getting additional powers and/or spells ( and spells in this form being similar to 4e rituals ). There should be lots of options, hopefully reasonably well balanced gainst each other.

“BECMI with ascending AC” combat --> more grid oriented, attacks of opportunity combat
------------------> Action points
------------------> (more interesting) crits and fumbles
------------------> Parry rolls, facing, other combat options
------------------>Alt defenses (static if saves default…)
------------------> (see power and maneuvers above)

Change the descriptions for ranges et al in combat back to real world measures rather than squares/hexes, so you do not NEED a grid to run a fight. Action points are good, as they can increase drama, and represent the last minute comeback attacks in a good dramatic fight. The way i imagine combat to end up is that the Core combat rules will be the complex combat rules available in the advanced options, but with a number of assumptions built in so they dont need to be accounted for in core combat.

Healing daily, or with a cleric --> more generous resting rules
------------------> Surges
------------------> Wound system

No Surges, or surges only from Action points.

Drop at 0, dead at -10 --> dead at this…or that…but not quite yet
------------------> 0=dead

KO at any hit points. some mechanic needs to be in place so that a character can be knocked out whilst still having all their hit points. at 0 hit points you go in to death states, and even if you survive going to 0 or below, there need to be consequences.

Opponents in a monster book --> have simple underlying math and can be adjusted easily
------------------> “built” with some work

Sounds good. a system to Build and modify monsters, along with a collection of monsters built with said system would be a great boon.

Standard equipment --> superior/exotic items
------------------> Odd and inferior items
------------------> Alchemical items
------------------> Encumbrance--> bulk system

in Core, standard equipment. in Advanced, all the above.

Default treasure set by DM--> that can sometimes be made or bought
------------------> Formally influenced by PCs
------------------> Cursed
------------------> Intelligent
------------------> Artifact
------------------> Trade goods and non-standard treasure
------------------> Alternate rewards (titles, etc)
------------------> Ray guns and flying cars

All of the above. Keep just Default treasure sets in Core, the rest in Advanced, although modifiable to suit the setting.

Adventure with the party--> +trusted retainers
------------------> Followers, some day
------------------> A castle, some day
------------------> A domain, some day
------------------> Complications (ie a personal life)
------------------> Contacts (with rules for them)

All of the above. Core is the party and maybe some retainers. The rest in advanced.

Minimal default setting --> Elaborated default
------------------>Homebrew
------------------> Published setting
------------------> Default cosmology -->Alt cosmology

Enough in the initial starter set / DM book to run a small region ( along the lines of Nentir Vale ). Some setting design rules in advanced, and a Worldbuilders guide later on.

__________________

 

[TerraDave]

lets see what we have...if it was confirmed (at least kinda) in red.

this may or may not be self explanatory



4d6, keep best-->point buy
------------------>More generous but random
------------------> 3d6 in order
------------------> Alt char gen (life path, 0 level test characters, etc)

Ability scores-->Simple Skills-->More involved Skills
------------------> Skill challenges
------------------> Non combat conflict rules
------------------> Old school, roll less approach

Standard Races--> Feat customizable races
------------------> Flexible race features
------------------> Variant, non core, races and sub-races
------------------> Themes, origins, backgrounds, etc

Standard Classes --> Feat customizable classes (--> custom/point buy classes)
------------------> Flexible class features
------------------> Variant, non core, classes (through the "rarity" system)
------------------> Variant power sources (psionics, alt magic systems)
----------------(--> see themes above)

9 alignments--> that matters somewhat
------------------> Or not
------------------> Or are different

Spells for some --> Powers for more
------------------> Combat maneuvers
------------------> Meta-magic
----------------(--> Variant power sources (psionics, alt magic systems)

“BECMI with ascending AC” combat --> more grid oriented, attacks of opportunity combat
------------------> Action points
------------------> (more interesting) crits and fumbles
------------------> Parry rolls, facing, other combat options
------------------>Alt defenses (static if saves default…)
------------------> (see power and maneuvers above)

Healing daily, or with a cleric --> more generous resting rules
------------------> Surges
------------------> Wound system

Drop at 0, dead at -10 --> dead at this…or that…but not quite yet
------------------> 0=dead

Opponents in a monster book --> have simple underlying math and can be adjusted easily
------------------> “built” with some work

Standard equipment --> superior/exotic items
------------------> Odd and inferior items
------------------> Alchemical items
------------------> Encumbrance--> bulk system

Default treasure set by DM--> that can sometimes be made or bought
------------------> Formally influenced by PCs
------------------> Cursed
------------------> Intelligent
------------------> Artifact
------------------> Trade goods and non-standard treasure
------------------> Alternate rewards (titles, etc)
------------------> Ray guns and flying cars

Adventure with the party--> +trusted retainers
------------------> Followers, some day
------------------> A castle, some day
------------------> A domain, some day
------------------> Complications (ie a personal life)
------------------> Contacts (with rules for them)

Minimal default setting --> Elaborated default
------------------>Homebrew
------------------> Published setting
------------------> Default cosmology -->Alt cosmology