Let's Not Save The World...Again


It used to take a lot less to make us feel heroic. Guns and ships and criminals used to be good enough, as in the stories of Rudyard Kipling, Arthur Conan Doyle, Robert Louis Stevenson, and even James Bond as written by Ian Fleming, not as he's known from movies. In pulps, it was enough to defeat a gang or an unusual villain. The "science fiction" adventure of H. G. Wells and Jules Verne is surprisingly tame by contemporary standards. Now we want everything in movies to be flashy and completely unrealistic, approaching the ridiculous, as in most comic book movies and other action movies (Indiana Jones IV, anyone?).
Jaded: "tired, bored, or lacking enthusiasm, typically after having had too much of something;"
"feeling or showing a lack of interest and excitement caused by having done or experienced too much of something"

We see it in video games: "save the world (or galaxy)" is a pretty common, almost mundane, motivation. It's not enough any more to rescue the kidnapped person or prevent a dastardly deed.

"Saving the world" creates a cheap sense of grandeur. It's the Age of Inflation, everything has to be "stunning" or "awesome," everybody is "saving the world." I call that jaded.

I played in a campaign where, invariably, we faced such waves of monsters that few of us (sometimes only my character) were left standing. The GM evidently manipulated numbers so that this would happen. But it became almost tedious rather than exciting.

We lose impact when it's always "save the world", or always any particular outcome/objective. Pacing is vital both in games and on the screen, and good pacing requires alternate tension and relaxation. If every story is “epic”, epic becomes normal, not extraordinary. If we always save the world, that becomes mundane. Games (like life) benefit from variation in tension/relaxation. The contrast makes them both more intense and more enjoyable. Good pacing would mean alternating the Save the World objectives with others at a lesser scale. (For an under-3-minutes explanation of pacing see https://youtu.be/QAPkcr4b0EE.)

What can a GM do? Set expectations from the campaign beginning. Choose players (and adventures) wisely. Make "Great Objectives" the purpose of an entire campaign, not of each adventure. The threat of death, or of losing all their stuff, should be enough to thrill adventurers without resort to saving the world.

In my campaigns, stretching back more than 40 years, we've never saved the world; an entire campaign might be about saving a city or country, but that didn't happen in every adventure (nor any particular adventure, really). Saving the world calls for really experienced (high-level) characters, and few get that high.

If it isn't enough to risk death, regardless of objective, then there may not be much you can do about jaded players. Or maybe there's no risk of death in your campaign? That could lead to boredom: no extreme lows.

References:
Extra Credits: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LScL4CWe5E
Gamasutra: http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/4032/beyond_pacing_games_arent_.php

contributed by Lewis Pulispher
 

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Jay Verkuilen

Grand Master of Artificial Flowers
To somebody new to the game starting with the "official" published adventures, you have a pretty high likelihood of playing a "save the world" style game. That's not to say that they haven't incorporated other play styles. Princes of the Apocalypse and to a larger degree, Storm King's Thunder provide more of a sandbox approach. Out of the Abyss looks back to the Descent to the Depths of the Earth (and later adventures with similar approaches) with it's underground exploration. But the overriding story, the goal of the adventures remains "save the world."
Yes, definitely.

I've also said that the current approach makes a lot of sense, especially from a business standpoint - a focused and consistent approach makes the game more approachable, easier to pick up and learn, and (from my perspective) appears to target the mass market, not the hardcore gamer. As much as I'd like more material that focuses on the types of things I like, they don't need to. I'll continue to pretty much buy it all, but modify it and pick it apart for my purposes. Not only would I be a very difficult audience to design "perfect" products for, but it would undoubtedly be a very small market. I would hope that people are playing them because they like them. That's kind of the point.
I'm definitely part of the market more like you, though I am not buying most of what they put out because I find stripping off all the AP fluff annoying. The value for me is pretty low. What I find annoying is how little really useful content they put out: Monsters, magic items, decent spells, some feats, short scenarios that are 2-4 pages long, etc. The APs do have some of those, but not enough to justify the cover price for me and they have all the AP plot I have to wade through and cut out. I suppose the fall release will have such in it, but it's been a LONG wait with bupkus released in the meantime. Volos was OK, as was SCAG, but the latter really had way too much fluff in it. Yeah, there's DMSGuild. Wading through that is really a pain and when it comes to player option kinds of things I'm really skeptical of things posted there. It just opens up too many cans of worms.
 

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Jay Verkuilen

Grand Master of Artificial Flowers
I'm currently running the first 'save the world' type plot I've ever run (although its more 'the world would suck until some other heroes saved it' than 'the world would end').My primary negative discovery about this sort of plot is that it puts the campaign on rails completely. If the fate of the world is at stake, the then PC's have a huge pressure on them to not attend to anything else. That means that all personal and party goals other than the main plot have to be continually side lined as less important. Fantasy authors tend to deal with this lack of low melodrama, by having lots of intraparty personal conflict - unrequited love, personality conflicts, defects of character, backstory as an abused character. But this doesn't necessarily work that well in an RPG situation, as only a small portion of players/tables have any interest in that sort of thespian centered play.
This is a very good point and it articulates it very clearly, particularly the very real difference between a novel and an RPG. Once the world needs saving (in some sense) it really puts everything else in a down position. I always feel weird in a computer RPG dropping off the main plot, though I've come to realize that time in a CRPG is really more event-driven and dramatic. I like the point about authors, because that's exactly what they do and you're 100% right that many players just aren't into all the intraparty conflict or psychodrama. I don't mind some but a lot of players just don't want any. Many have more than enough of that in their real life and don't want more in their recreation. Others just aren't very good at it and it's demanding on the DM.

In fairness, I didn't send out a survey to all players at the start of the game and they did indicate that they wanted an 'Adventure Path' type story, but even so, I'm finding I miss the digressions and side quests that come with a game with less intense and less long term primary goals.
I agree, the digressions are often the really fun part. It's like the X-Files, where the mytharc episodes were fine and all that but the standalone episodes were often the best.
 

DM Howard

Explorer
The Dark Eye is a great example of a RPG and world where heroes do heroic things, but not everything is on a world-shattering scale.
 

Hussar

Legend
Yeah, I can totally see that. A world saving campaign is likely going to be far more focused than a low stakes game. There isn't a whole lot of point to going off and saving your long lost brother when demons are going to destroy the world first. :D

I suppose, that's really where the play style thing is going to really rear its head. If you like a looser campaign where personal PC goals drives the game forward, then the stronger central focus of a "save the world" campaign likely isn't going to make you very happy.
 

Jay Verkuilen

Grand Master of Artificial Flowers
Yeah, I can totally see that. A world saving campaign is likely going to be far more focused than a low stakes game. There isn't a whole lot of point to going off and saving your long lost brother when demons are going to destroy the world first. :D I suppose, that's really where the play style thing is going to really rear its head. If you like a looser campaign where personal PC goals drives the game forward, then the stronger central focus of a "save the world" campaign likely isn't going to make you very happy.
The real trick is if the DM can work those personal stories into the big epic stuff. It's tricky and the players have to be responsible for the story, too, which oftentimes they don't seem to be.
 

Aenghus

Explorer
I like "Save the world" plots, but the PC don't have to know that's what they are doing for ages in the game itself. It is true once they are locked into a high priority mode it tends to push out everything else, so I avoid doing that for much of my campaigns, and create a series of linked objectives of escalating priority they can discover and address one by one, with gaps between episodes for holidays and personal plotlines, rather than a single overriding problem from the very start. At some point its time to kick off the main quest line, at which point its reasonable to expect the party to focus on saving the world to the exclusion of other activities.
 

Hussar

Legend
Now, I'll admit that I haven't bought the WotC AP modules. But, I have played in a couple. It's my understanding that a lot of the modules aren't really "save the world" plot modules. For example, in Princes of the Apocalypse, a good chunk of the adventure takes place at the pretty local level. One of the modules, for example, you infiltrate a castle run by the cultists (and a bunch of humanoids) and try to wrestle control of that castle away from the humanoids and save the lizardfolk that are being enslaved by the cultists. At least, that's how we played it out.

And, again, from my limited understanding, in Out of the Abyss, a large chunk of the AP is spent simply trying to get out of the Underdark. Again, it's very local and focused on the group, rather than the larger picture stuff of saving the world. As I understand it, it's pretty old school where you are focused on survival and exploration, rather than plotsy story stuff. Again, I fully admit to my own ignorance of the specifics, but, as I understand it, that's largely the focus of the first half of the campaign.

So, it's not like every scenario is "Save the World" stuff. A lot of it is pretty local loosely tied to the over arching campaign. I'd say that multiple play styles really are being serviced, at least in part.

IOW, I do disagree with the premise that we're seeing all one thing - Save the World plots. We aren't. Not really. The initial two or three scenarios (or more) of every AP seems to be pretty focused on the small scale stuff, right down to just, "Save yourself".

Now, as far as speed of advancement goes. Well, that's just a recognition of the reality of gamers. There is so much competition for free time that the idea that a campaign should be expected to last three, four, five years, is just unrealistic. While I realize that some groups manage this, I'm fairly confident in saying that most don't. And, if campaigns, and quite possibly groups as well, don't last more than 2 years, what's the point of having a game that takes more than that in order to play the whole game. This is an issue that was brought up in 3e and the response is pretty much the same. If groups only last 1-2 years, and it takes 3+ years to hit high or very high levels, then either speed up advancement or chop the game. There's just no point in having all that material when so few people actually use it.
 

pemerton

Legend
I'm only relating my experiences, perception, and that it's necessarily a small sample size. So NO, I don't think it's how everybody played the game, and I also indicated that.

My message isn't "how it is in the day" so much as a simple observation that the focus of the game, by both design and presentation, has changed.
I know this is a discussion forum, not a debating club, and so I'm not out just to score cheap points.

But the passage I've quoted genuinely puzzles me. Are you telling us about how you played (and still play?), and explaining how that is a viable alternative to "save the world"? Or are you making claims about "how it was in the day" and thus how "the focus of the game" has changed?

It's that second set of claims that I (and, as I understand his posts, [MENTION=22779]Hussar[/MENTION]) disagree with - because the game has never really been solely focused on KotB-style dungeon-crawling. In the late 70s there was enough "story"-style play going on that it made sense for White Dwarf to publish essays discussing the mertis of different approaches. While the section on successful adventures in the AD&D PHB is concerned mostly with dungeon crawling, the classes presented include paladins, druid and monks - all clearly best suited for stuff other than dungeon-crawling. The AD&D MM contains world-threatening as well as prosaic monsters (like the demon princes). And the AD&D DMG contains (limited) resources to support more story-focused or even epic "save the world"-style play (eg the artefacts and relics; the rules for divine intervention, which, to me at least, seem to have an Elric-ish inspiration lurking in the background).

And then there is the foreword to Moldvay Basic that I've already mentioned, which clearly intimates an approach to play quite different from classis dungeon or hex crawling.

The first set of claims - that it is possible to play a successful but non-save-the-world game - I take to be non-controversial.

the rules have altered the way the game is presented.

<snip>

D&D has never been designed for one specific play style. Well, perhaps Gary felt it was. But the reality is that it has always been more than one particular style. But over the years, certain play styles have been promoted more than others simply by the rules
What rules in 5e promote a "save the world"-type focus over a more prosaic focus.

(I know what rules do that in 4e - namely, the rules around epic tier - but those rules aren't present in 5e.)

I think they are playing up the epic style of play, which to some degree is at the expense of other styles.
How is it "at the expense of other styles"? What burden on anyone else's game arises from the fact that WotC publishes APs?
 

Ilbranteloth

Explorer
I know this is a discussion forum, not a debating club, and so I'm not out just to score cheap points.

But the passage I've quoted genuinely puzzles me. Are you telling us about how you played (and still play?), and explaining how that is a viable alternative to "save the world"? Or are you making claims about "how it was in the day" and thus how "the focus of the game" has changed?

It's that second set of claims that I (and, as I understand his posts, [MENTION=22779]Hussar[/MENTION]) disagree with - because the game has never really been solely focused on KotB-style dungeon-crawling. In the late 70s there was enough "story"-style play going on that it made sense for White Dwarf to publish essays discussing the mertis of different approaches. While the section on successful adventures in the AD&D PHB is concerned mostly with dungeon crawling, the classes presented include paladins, druid and monks - all clearly best suited for stuff other than dungeon-crawling. The AD&D MM contains world-threatening as well as prosaic monsters (like the demon princes). And the AD&D DMG contains (limited) resources to support more story-focused or even epic "save the world"-style play (eg the artefacts and relics; the rules for divine intervention, which, to me at least, seem to have an Elric-ish inspiration lurking in the background).

And then there is the foreword to Moldvay Basic that I've already mentioned, which clearly intimates an approach to play quite different from classis dungeon or hex crawling.

The first set of claims - that it is possible to play a successful but non-save-the-world game - I take to be non-controversial.

What rules in 5e promote a "save the world"-type focus over a more prosaic focus.

(I know what rules do that in 4e - namely, the rules around epic tier - but those rules aren't present in 5e.)

How is it "at the expense of other styles"? What burden on anyone else's game arises from the fact that WotC publishes APs?

When I'm talking about the presentation of the game, I'm talking not only about what is written in the pages, but what is published as a whole, or what is not published, as well as what is presented as "official" or "semi-official."

So OD&D, for example, promoted a style where the DM created the world and the dungeons. That was the "apparently intended" style of play, because at the time TSR didn't promote an approach where you simply pick up the books, buy and adventure and play. Within that structure there were all sorts of play styles, but the "official" approach was that you made it up yourself.

For a new player, who says, "I've heard about this D&D thing, and want to give it a try" and decides to see what's available typically won't have a frame of reference as to what a TTRPG is. They might have played video game RPGs, but that's a bit different.

"So, OK, I need the Basic Set, or the PHB and maybe the DMG, etc. But how do I put it all together? Oh, I can buy a published adventure."

So they do. They like it, have fun, and buy another. Maybe a third. At that point they're ready to try their hand at writing their own.

Despite the fact that the DMG and PHB describe other play styles, they've been exposed by the publisher of the actual game to a single play style - "save the world." By not providing alternatives, they are promoting that play style by default.

I'm not saying that's good or bad, it's just the impression it gives (at least to me). AD&D up until 1987 "promoted" build your own campaign. Even the World of Greyhawk was little more than a framework to get the DM started. Adventures might mention where they were in Greyhawk, which just pointed you toward that product, which gave you the framework to design your world. As I pointed out, B2 (and B1, and others), gave you specific instructions on how to flesh out the adventure, and Jean Wells and others have noted that one of the early design approaches they used was to include undefined parts of the area or dungeon for the DM to flesh out.

2e "promoted" a very different approach, especially as time went on. First, that D&D could be just about anything, although within the sword & sorcery base. Spelljammer, Dark Sun, Planescape, along with variations on the more traditional settings. But the big point was now that the DM didn't have to create anything - we have it for you. Whatever style you like, we have a setting, and adventures for those settings.

When I look at 5e, in the rulebooks and the published adventures, I see a more super heroic approach than a heroic approach. Level advancement, and gaining new abilities as you do, is the name of the game now. The expectation is that you'll advance in level every few sessions.

For example, in the AD&D DMG when it is talking about acquisition of spells, you are an apprentice to "a master of unthinkably high level (at least 6th!)" and I'm pretty sure it was Ed Greenwood that indicated that NPC levels were suitably inflated in the first Forgotten Realms campaign setting so as to be much higher than the expected PCs so they were always a challenge, and couldn't be just killed. I think that eventually backfired on them, though.

In 5e, 3rd level is really the new 1st level (when you select an archetype, although some classes do earlier). APs are designed to take you from 1st to 15th level in one grand adventure (although that trend was started in 3e if I recall). Contrast that to the AD&D adventures, where they eventually published T1-4, A1-4 (adjusting the levels upward to fit the new structure) and GDQ1-7 in a manner that you could run it as a single campaign with the same characters. That's 12+ adventures (depending on how you count T1-4) in three different adventure paths to do the same thing.

And no, it's not about "how it was in the day." It's just a commentary on how the overall presentation of the game by the publisher promotes a particular way to play the game. Yes, people will play it many different ways (one of the strengths of D&D, or RPGs in general). But new people picking up the game for the first time are steered or at least nudged toward a particular style of play. That does mean that "how it was in the day" is probably different, generally, than today.

You're a fan of Story Now games. They are more specific in their focus than D&D ever has been. It would be difficult to play a Story Now game with a strict sandbox/hexcrawl/dungeon crawl approach with no story input from the GM. In fact, it's really against the design goal of those games.

Like all designers, those that designed D&D had their intentions as well. Their concept of what D&D is, and how to play it. It's not nearly as focus as some newer games, but it's still there. Dave Arneson had a different opinion than Gary Gygax, but they still had their concepts. As I've said, Gary didn't see any point in publishing adventures initially. That's not how he intended for the game to be played. But the players of the game thought differently, and the game changed because of it. But that doesn't change how the game was presented at the time.

The potential impact is primarily on new players coming to the game. Since it's a social game, that impact can be lessened (although I see it all the time when I meet people who learn to play via the 5e rules without much or any guidance or input from other gamers). Like any gamer, I like to find other like-minded players to play with. It doesn't mean I'm not willing to change, or expand my horizons (although I'm admittedly much less interested in that now than I was 30 years ago). It was far easier to find like-minded players in the early '80s than it is now. I can find more players, they are everywhere. And that's awesome. But they often have different priorities and play styles in mind. They seem to be everywhere online, but not local to me, and I'm not interested in running an online game. I prefer a face-to-face game.

When I teach new players to play, then I usually find that I also have like-minded players. Because they've learned it from me and my style. But that's me promoting it, not WotC. Most of the players I've taught continue to play, and a good percentage of them eventually gravitate to being a DM because they aren't finding other like-minded DMs.

A stronger impact is when I try to play with folks that first learned D&D with 4e. For many of those players, my style is just plain incompatible since I don't use a grid, and everything is theater of the mind. Again, this is a direct impact of the way the rules were written and presented. I also find that it's like pulling teeth to get them to tell me what their character is actually doing, rather than ask, "can I make a <insert skill here> check?" My play style is foreign to them, even though we're both playing the same game.

Overall, though, I'm only commenting on this in relation to the OP. The OP was saying that it doesn't always have to be "save the world." Something I agree with. But I think that part of the reason DMs seem to write more "save the world" adventures, is because that's what they are used to playing.

You could say it's a chicken/egg thing. WotC is publishing "save the world" adventures because that's what sells, but since they don't publish anything else (for the most part so far), then they can't really know if other things sell or not. And the "save the world" approach started long before 5e. But it was not a common approach up through AD&D until probably Dragonlance. Even the GDQ series wasn't really a threat against the world, or at least it wasn't presented as that type of campaign. When you started G1, there was no indication that you might eventually fight a demigod 7 adventures later. And that's assuming you cared to follow the storyline to each subsequent adventure (or that the DM cared to). And if what you have to go by is the published materials, then is certainly seems like 5e is a "save the world" type of game.
 

Aenghus

Explorer
I think that typical fantasy art of adventurers battling hideous monsters was more dynamic, more marketable than, let's say, pictures of adventurers looting a room of treasure, and such artwork became more common even in editions with alternate play styles, some of which were more of the "avoid the monsters, grab the loot" type. Over the editions monster battling became more and more an expected adventurer activity IMO, with more campaigns that corresponded to the inspirational artwork and adventure modules they inspired.

And "Save the world" is a strong motivation for fighting dangerous monsters as the stakes are so high.

As regards play styles as they evolve in various games groups, I think they are very complex things with multiple reasons contributing to the whole. For instance, I'm bad at theatre of the mind, and prefer visual representations of complex situations, such as miniatures and a grid. As a player I would constantly lose track of the situation in theatre of the mind play, and beyond a certain level of complexity found it a frustrating and unsatisfying style of play that reduced my enjoyment of the game. Some matters of taste have ramifications beyond mere enjoyment and can help or hinder the entire play experience for some individuals.

Over time people with incompatible tastes will find this out and probably not stick together very long, while people with similar or compatible tastes are more likely to create stable games groups.
 

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