Let's read the entire run

[(un)reason]

Dragon Magazine Issue 208: August 1994


part 1/6


132 pages. The wolves howl and the cold wind blows in a cover which is completely contradictory to the actual season of this issue. Also advertised on the cover is coverage of their dead campaign world, and brand new CCG. It's all a bit contentious. Still, that means they're challenging their audience. Whether the audience will accept the challenge is another matter altogether. Maybe there is some reward at the end. It may be madness, but I've just got to see.


In this issue:


Letters: Another round of the submission guidelines thang. It never goes out of fashion. This proves two things. The magazine is still getting new readers. And people just don't pay attention, do they. Man, this stuff gets repetitive.

Not repetitive, on the other hand, is a letter by someone who turned a potentially tedious wander around into an opportunity. It's amazing what you can turn into a useful tool if you keep your eyes open and do a little macguyvering.

And finally, we have a complaint from someone who can't find call of cthulhu stuff near them. And as before, this is solved by giving their address and telling the writer to order direct. I can't wait for internet shopping to take off so this ceases to be a concern.


Editorial: Dale tries to promote roleplaying over rollplaying again, by giving you a little assistance in building their personality. Who, what, when, where, why and how? Simple one word questions, that can have very complicated answers indeed. When building a character, it's important to do so from several angles, otherwise what appears solid and 3-dimensional at first can turn out to be just a cardboard cutout. But at the same time, overcomplicating things can result in a whole load of wasted effort. My tendency is to go for a little too much, but the more I have to do, the less chance I get to indulge that desire. As is often the case with Dale, this is more an extra article than any commentary on current events. He's really racking them up despite not actually doing official articles himself. I also wonder just how much he actually adds and takes away from articles on a regular basis. Being an editor gives you a lot of behind the scenes power, different ones will use it to different extents, and probably only another experienced editor could tell the difference from reading a completed publication. So this isn't bad at all, and has also been fairly thought-provoking in general.


Jyhad, aka the Vampire TCG. Everyone's getting in on the act. But some will have more success than others. And it's not always the ones you'd expect.


First Quest: Ah yes, James Lowder. One of the people who's become a regular contributor to this thread in the last year or so. He seems noticeably less zany than some of our other writers, but that just meant his early adventures wound up with him as the straight guy, getting screwed over and rapidly dying while the more experienced players laughed. It's a hard knock life, for us. Still, once again, it makes for a fairly entertaining story that a lot of readers will be able to identify with. To truly hook people on something, you need intermittent reward, and combining sadistic teasing with the fun bits fits that bill disturbingly well. So this is a study in social dynamics, and how they (don't) change as we grow up. People manufacture drama because without it, they would be bored, and in the process, drag everyone else in. And some people need a lot more drama in their lives than others. Stay away from people who need more drama than you can take. Even if they don't mean to hurt you, it'll just fill your life with annoyance.


Right from the start. Ooh, an article by Eric Noah, the founder of ENWorld. Like Sandy's contributing over the last year, that's a definite turnup for the books. Following straight on from First Quest is another slant on introductory info. You can just throw them into the dungeon and make up a world as you go along, but this gets old after a couple of times. If you know your players, know what they want, and engage in the worldbuilding and character generation process simultaneously, you can tailor them to each other, making your life easier, and your players happier. Makes sense to me. A whole bunch of highly specific steps, with examples, makes this a pretty easy one to implement too. It's all pretty likeable. He evidently knows how to work with people and get good results out of them. Seems appropriate really. Keeping a whole bunch of moderators on the same page and not abusing their powers would require much the same skillset.

 

[prosfilaes]

Not repetitive, on the other hand, is a letter by someone who turned a potentially tedious wander around into an opportunity. It's amazing what you can turn into a useful tool if you keep your eyes open and do a little macguyvering.

Whereas that letter, about the art stores, annoys me deeply, and stuck in my craw the last time I read it. It implied that gamer are all male, and the only way they'd go to one of these art stores was if their wives dragged them there, neither true statements.

 

[Orius]

Planescape decides to expand on the places dumb adventurers are most likely to want to go first. The Planes of Chaos. Oh yeaaaaaaah. See the curiously phallic giant ship being constructed on the cover. Go wild in Arborea. Go mad in Pandemonium. Go drinking and brawling in Ysgard. Totally trip out in Limbo. And there's so much to do and see in the abyss that you'll never live to experience. Just enjoy the awesome.

And see orius pencil in ORCUS all over the section for the Abyss. Silly family-friendly policies.

 

[(un)reason]

Dragon Magazine Issue 208: August 1994


part 2/6


The sound of adventure: Once again with the audio CD cheese. I do have to wonder if their commitment to this format was one of the things causing Mystara to die so quickly once it went AD&D. After all, even if the products sell the same amount they used too, creating stuff like this pushes up costs quite a bit. So as soon as their finances start dipping into the red, these'll be the first to be flagged up as problems. Actually, how did the Mystara stuff compare in sales to the old basic D&D gazetteers and modules? There do seem to be quite a few people peeved by the rebranding, and possibly not buying the new products because of that. So this is an irritating promotional article that is very indicative indeed of the problems growing within the company. Silly gimmicks drive away regular buyers and attract people who then don't become long-term fans. Plus the audio CD's were pretty lame in general, which certainly didn't help. At least this is mercifully short.


Masterbook! WEG makes their own shot at an universal system, with worldbooks for indiana jones, and bloodshadows (I smell WoD clone) coming soon.


Get motivated!: Contrasting with Dale's character creation advice earlier, this article thinks the most important part of a character is not who they are, or their past, but what they intend to do now and in the future. Interesting thought. It's certainly the case that far too often, players will come up with an elaborate backstory, but in the end, become just another cog in the party, doing exactly the same dungeoncrawls that they always do, unless they make a conscious effort to adjust their natural playing habits. Course to make that work, you need to co-ordinate with the other players to make sure they don't have contradictory goals, otherwise you'll tear the party apart. This is a bit of advice that they haven't given us before, and it's one of the good aspects of the characterisation-heavy era, so I quite like this one. Like method acting, there are various other cool ways you can approach the same problem. If you think up a new one, don't hesitate to share it.


Bazaar of the Bizarre: Another article on horses here. If an experienced adventurer wants a mount, they've got to be prepared to upgrade it for it to stay battle competitive. If you don't want to switch to dragons or something, then you'll have to start making magical items for your horse.

Bridles of Equine control do exactly what they say on the tin. Magic enforced loyalty for those who can't be bothered to form a proper bond with their animal.

Bridles of fearlessness, intelligence or strength are also pretty self explanatory. How do you want to buff your mount today? Make sure you're badass enough to keep up with them, whichever way you choose.

Feed bags of plenty ensure you don't need to load up with grain and water. You'll still need to remember to put them on and take them off each day. Maybe you should just get a golem, if that much maintenance is too much for you.

Grooming kits of disguise let you change the appearance of your mount. After all, if you're going undercover, you don't want to be given away because you forgot a basic detail like that.

Riding crops of speed let you push your mount extra hard. It has it's limits, of course. Killing your horse through pushing it too hard is not a good idea.

Riding crops of teleportation, on the other hand, dispense with all that sweat and effort and just get you there. I know which I'd prefer in most situations.

Saddlebags of holding are for the adventurer who still can't carry enough despite all their own extradimensional spaces. Jeez, that's gonna hold a lot of treasure.

Saddle blankets of comfort are for holding while you suck your thumb. Or something. Your horse needs environmental protection too you know.

Shoes of Combat are the horsey equivalent of magical weapon, Your basic bonus to hit and damage. Yawn.

Shoes of Flame are like a flaming sword, a nice upgrade to the previous idea. They also protect both the horse and rider, which definitely seems useful to me. Ride across that magma Trigger!

Shoes of Leaping are the equivalent of boots, which reminds us that the horsey item slot situation is a bit more competitive than for humans.

Shoes of Flight make the previous item look thoroughly unimpressive. Flight vs jumping. No competition really.

Shoes of Obscurity are the horsey equivalent of rings of invisibility. They'll let you disappear mysteriously when needed elsewhere. With billowing mists too. Neat.

Shoes of Protection are another straight conversion. Some protect the rider as well, some don't. either way, you're not going to kick them out of bed for wearing them. <_< >_>

Shoes of Swimming should also be pretty obvious in effect. Speeding through the waves, faster than a flashing dolphin.You'll still get wet though.

Shoes of Weakness are the usual cursed item in the batch, to keep you paranoid. You didn't think making equine items couldn't go wrong, did you?

Spurs of command are another means of ensuring obedience. Once again I have nothing much to say.

Trappings of displacement let you imitate a displacer beast. Not very useful if in formation, obviously, but pretty nasty for hit and run combat.

Trappings of elvenkind remind us that the nature loving ponces provide for all animals. While not as good as the shoes of obscurity, they once again have quite decent concealment capabilities.

Trappings of protection are yet another direct conversion. They'll even stack with other compatible garments. A decidedly unimaginative end for a really rather boring article. Man, that was a serious grind to do.

 

[David Howery]

I remember designing a "Bit of Fire-breathing' once, which let the horse breath fire... which sounds really neat until you remember that the PC himself didn't have control of it... and since horses tend to be a lot more skittish than the PCs....

 

[(un)reason]

Dragon Magazine Issue 208: August 1994


part 3/6


Team Spirit: A third bit of character-building advice this month once again takes a different angle. Don't know why they didn't make it this issue's formal special topic. As should be obvious from the title, this is about giving your party enough common ground that they want to adventure together. Now, you can work this out amongst you, or if you want to make the campaign truly random and quick, you can roll on a table. Actually, this devotes more time to the random tables than the custom advice, which I find rather amusing. Some of them could be used in conjunction with others, and of course, the table on group customs could be rolled as many times as you want, and you think they can remember. This is another thing that could break an impasse and speed along the process of starting up a campaign by a few hours. Definitely one for noting down.


Behind the scenes: Bah, back to the promotional articles with a planescape one. Unlike the teasers, this is fairly banal, although it does have some cool sketches I don't remember seeing in the actual books. While Diterlizzi gets all the fame, Dana Knutson also had a good deal to do with defining planescape's distinctive aesthetic, and indeed, getting it commissioned in the first place. And of course, there are plenty of other people who deserve credit for making the line as good as it is. So this is a bit of mwah, mwah, we're all fabulous dahlings, let's engage in a bit of backslapping and drink champagne to celebrate our baby being released into the world. It's a little bit sickly, but oh well. At least in this case they deserve it. Still, again I say next! This is inconsequential!


Campaign Journal: Carl Sargent makes his final contribution to Greyhawk's post war geography. Last time we went sailing the sea, now it's into the depths of the Adri forrest. Even elves & stubby gnomes are rare in the depths of this one, while bandits, goblinoids and weird stuff aplenty for the players to fight roam the area. So it's mostly low-mid level encounters, but there's also one super high level plot device bit that's near impossible to get into, and has a terrifying evil artifact sealed within. With plenty of important characters from the area given full stats, this is another fairly long and wide-reaching article that you'll have to build upon to make a complete campaign, but does give you enough for when players stroll through the area. It's not as obviously suffering post-war as other areas, but it is a place riven by paranoia, with lots of small groups who don't trust each other or any strangers wandering through. And with adventurers being the sort to fight first and ask questions later, they shouldn't be short of opportunities for XP. So I think once again this'll make for fairly good gaming. Should I be playing greyhawk, I'd use this.


Eye of the monitor: Ah yes, computers vs consoles. one war that was particularly immature, because the majority of people eventually wound up owning at least one of each. Can we not accept that each has plusses and negatives for different kinds of games? Fie on ye, and your tribalism! A pox on both your houses! I'll be over here having fun with both.

Secret of Mana is another megaseller of the SNES era, even if it doesn't quite beat Zelda 3 overall. Sandy still gives it a 5 star rating; with it's multiple characters, decent AI, sense of humour and challenging puzzles. Consoles can produce games that have depth and don't let anyone say otherwise.

Ultima: the false Prophet brings this series to the Super Nintendo. It doesn't get a brilliant grade, and actually, it barely gets reviewed at all, with Sandy digressing into a rant on the drawbacks of console versions of PC games, and indeed conversions in general. This is actually probably more interesting than a normal review would be. He does seem surprisingly keen on turning this column into a general soapbox.

Al-Qadim: The Genie's Curse is one of the final SSI AD&D games. It does have the usual flaw of requiring grinding for XP, but is otherwise is plenty of fun, and has a lot more instant action than the old games. Nice to see them producing stuff for the smaller campaign settings as well.

Ultima VIII: Pagan sees this series continue to decline in quality. It doesn't give you enough help figuring out how to play it, and the controls grow increasingly arcade game like. Fashion is moving on, and they're moving in the wrong way to follow it successfully.

God of Thunder has you playing Thor, of course, smashing and solving puzzles in an overhead zeldaesque style. It's a bit primitive, but it's free, so what's the worry. The worst you can get is some wasted time.

Raptor is a shoot'em up where you get to upgrade your plane between missions with the money you earned from blowing up enemies. Sandy enjoys that, finding getting real rewards for your accomplishments instead of just a higher score increases the pleasure. Once again, it's free as well. And blowing stuff up is inherently fun in itself.

 

[Orius]

Eye of the monitor: Ah yes, computers vs consoles. one war that was particularly immature, because the majority of people eventually wound up owning at least one of each. Can we not accept that each has plusses and negatives for different kinds of games? Fie on ye, and your tribalism! A pox on both your houses! I'll be over here having fun with both.

Well, this is pre-Sony & Xbox after all, at the time consoles were still seen as somewhat immature. Probably due to Nintendo of America's strict censoring policies and marketing primarily towards kids. However, it's kind of reaching the end of this stage; when the article was written, Sega had expanded out to older players, the Playstation was brand new, and the inital ESRB ratings had been or were about to be established.

 

[(un)reason]

Dragon Magazine Issue 208: August 1994


part 4/6


Defend the realms: Our first proper spellfire article makes it's appearance. Variant rules time! Allen Varney was our first reporter on CCG's, so it's fitting he experiments to see what happens if you change bits around on TSR's new game. Change the pyramid to a line, circle, cross, grid or cluster. Introduce an economic element to play, as happens in reality. Ally protectors. And they squeeze in some errata as well. This isn't bad at all, and squeezes in a lot of options in a small page count. (made to look bigger by lots of awkwardly shaped adverts) It's a bit more variety for the magazine, and doesn't feel forced like the Buck Rogers articles in issue 157. Once again, it looks like I'm going to be able to get more info on something I pointedly ignored at the time. As long as they keep it to 1 article a month or less, and they don't suck too much, this is an entirely valid use of their page count.


Gaming around the world: It's been a while since we had a yank go off to report on the UK conventions. This could be good for a laugh. No great surprises here, but of course, it's the little differences that really stand out in his mind. The greater politeness of the english (ha!) The vaguely prisonlike UK holiday camps. The massive greasy breakfasts. All the cool old stuff. And the convention itself isn't bad either. So this reminds us that you shouldn't just be adventuring in your mind, and if you do, don't be surprised when everywhere you create seems the same to your players. Some real travel'll really help shake up your ingrained assumptions and let you create more varied cultures in your game worlds. Plus shopping opportunities. It's fun being a tourist. So this is one that's interesting for me because it does turn the tables on my UK flavoured viewpoint, and the enjoyment of the writer bleeds through into the article. Obviously it's not as significant as Gary's first trip to the UK, back in issue 63, but very few articles these days are. Another little adventure, that hopefully'll lead to bigger adventures for you.


Forum: Rick Underwood revisits that thorny subject of critical hits. He suggests the probability system adopted in 3rd ed. Natural 20 means a threat, then you have to roll a hit again to confirm. Well well. This is a turnup for the books. He also uses fumbles with a similar probability if you roll a natural 1. This seems like about the right probability of brutality to me.

J. W. Rommell talks about his own experiences gaming, and suggests that you ought to let new gamers watch before they dive in. This stuff doesn't have to be scary.

Serena Ng also tackles both the sexism and introducing new players angles. It's less scary if you introduce several at once. Girls can get intimidated when there's just one of them and a whole bunch of blokes, especially if they're already an established group. It's one of the things that makes bands with female lead singers particularly unstable.

Marle McCabe believes Stout halflings have more in common with gnomes than dwarves. Don't let Tolkien hem you in. He never had gnomes to worry about.

Daman Robinson points out that it is entirely possible for male gamers to play female characters. Some of them aren't even lesbian stripper ninjas. There are plenty of male actors who actually enjoy acting.

Mike Olgren advises us not to be embarrassed of roleplaying as an adult. We don't grow out of our musical tastes. Like video games, the problem is simply because it's a first generation form of entertainment. We just have to make sure the hobby survives after they die out and gets passed down successfully.


The game wizards: Dragon passed it's 200th issue fairly recently. Now Polyhedron hits the big 1 oh oh. And it looks like they're putting a similar degree of extra effort to make it a special issue as well. Ed Greenwood is contributing, of course. But there's also stuff from Margaret Weis, Zeb Cook, Monte Cook, Bruce Heard and Roger Moore. Pretty much the same cast as we see regularly contributing to Dragon. It also looks like they're making an extra effort to cover other RPG's in this one. I do wonder just how connected the editorial policies of the two magazines (and Dungeon, for that matter) are. Will all three cut out coverage of 3rd party stuff at the same time in early 96? Do they all use the same editing and typesetting equipment? (I'm still not sure if they've moved fully to computer yet) As ever, when they bring this topic up, I must bemoan the apparent absence of polyhedron issues on the web, or anyone willing to hunt them down physically and do a reading thread. It's looking increasingly unlikely that itch will get to be scratched. So this a promotional article that reminds me there's a whole other untapped source of old D&D articles, many of which are quite good in their own right, even if they don't have the same legendariness simply due to smaller reader base. It'd be a shame if that just disappeared into the ether as the physical copies gradually wear out and get lost.

 

[(un)reason]

Dragon Magazine Issue 208: August 1994


part 5/6


Role-playing reviews: Another delve into the quirky small-press games. Cool ideas, implementation limited by budget. Often an interesting position. Will any of these go on to greater things?

Whispering vault is Mike Nystul's rather interesting attempt at designing his own game. Creating a premise that seems perfect for an anime series, you're ascended beings with their own weird and wonderful realms protecting the world from rogue gods. Lester only got to see a prerelease copy, which had a few flaws, but hopefully some of them'll be fixed in the full version. It's still a decidedly fun premise, and the dice mechanic is interesting as well. This is one that should have done better, and seems a good subject for a revival.

World Wrestling Federation basic adventure follows in the footsteps of our old Ringside game to bring the world of pro sports to roleplaying. It's a very amusing idea but the writing is repetitive and hard to untangle. It results in things being a lot slower than they ought to be, which spoils the fun.

All-star Wrestling game does a good deal better. It's only half the size, yet a lot more flexible, and easy to play. Should you want to engage in white room combat and bizarre theatrics, this is the one to pick.

Superbabes is licensed from the Femforce comics, and like most licences, tries to emulate the tone of the source material. In this case, that's quite playful and not too complicated, with drama point mechanics that promote the right kind of stories. The main complaint seems to be the shoddy construction of the physical books themselves. Meh.

Inferno panders to the satanic RPG controversy, with you playing damned souls, necromancers, demons, or possibly priests venturing into hell to smite evil and rescue unjustly imprisoned souls. You can choose to be good or bad, and either looks fun, but of course the evil options are given more relish, just to annoy the moral majority. Like white wolf, they must be gambling this will increase their success.


Fiction: Time in a bottle by P. Andrew Miller. We had a genie based bit in the computer reviews. Now we have another story involving a being with phenomenal cosmic power, and an itty-bitty living space. Quite a good one, as it twists around two classic genie tropes - the perversion of the wisher's wish, and the desire to wish them free. It also manages to expertly mix pathos and humour, and get inside the head of a decidedly alien creature. And the happy ending is just tear-jerkingly brilliant. A real little gem that fits a lot of descriptive density into it's pages. This one definitely goes in my top ten bits of fiction from the magazine.


Gunnar Thorson is capable of surprisingly deep thought for a man engaged in pitched combat in the dark.


Sage advice: What classes and level can tieflings be (most of them, pretty high. They're versatile little things, as befits their diverse heritage )

Do magically aged undead get more powerful (probably not. You don't get mental bonuses for fake aging, so they shouldn't either)

Can druids use athasian weapons if they're made of organic materials (Hmm. Skip is suspicious of this concept. Skip does not recommend it.)

Where's the height, weight and aging tables for the new planescape races, ya berk. (Are you threatening skip with yo bad 19th century british slang. Skip was brought up on the mean shores of Lake Geneva, where there were d4's that could take your foot off lurking round every corner. Skip laughs at your pitiful attempts to sound tough, biatch. But Skip will answer your question anyway. Now watch yo mouth next time. Can you dig it?)

Where the hell is the Dawnspire?( Good question. Errata, errata, here we go again. )

Can PC githzerai plane shift (No. They've all been disowned for associating with other races. )

Can planars really see portals without using magic (yes. Why do you doubt the books, friend citizen? )

Are 1st and 2nd level priest spells common knowledge to sha'irs (no)

How the hell do dragons from far countries get to the council of wyrms on time (Flying 20 hours a day. Man, their wings are gonna need a serious massage after that. )

When are all the things that happen in the forgotten realms novels gonna be properly updated to the game. (They aren't. They're just gonna be referred to obliquely so you have to buy everything to keep up with the metaplot )

I question the validity of your rulings! You keep missing points! (Ahh, fresh meat. Come here son, Skip's gonna teach you a valuable lesson. :bang: There. Once your kneecaps heal, I hope you won't make the same mistake again. Ahh, that's better. It's been too long since Skip did that. )

Can a beholder's eyes survive the death of the body (No, thank god. They'd be even more of a nightmare if that was the case. )

Wouldn't a vampire that had recently fed still be obvious to infravision, because the heat would be concentrated in their stomach? (And what's to say it isn't passed straight to their veins? They do not have regular metabolisms, remember. Your DM was entirely in his rights to screw you out of 2 levels in this way. )

 

[(un)reason]

Dragon Magazine Issue 208: August 1994


part 6/6


Libram X gets rather confusing as Jen meets an alternate her. Dragonmirth finds a prince in every pond. Joe gets in trouble with his gods in Yamara. This is what happens when you hang around vampires.

WotC creates their own comic to advertise their customer sales line. It's a Foglio number too. Haven't seen much of him around here recently. This is the kind of thinking that will lead them to own ur ass, TSR.


Through the looking glass: Ken proves himself not a reviewer after my own heart by saying that the reason most of his reviews are positive is because he thinks we'd rather hear about the good stuff than be warned away from the bad stuff. NOPE! I want to laugh at the crap stuff. Entire websites are formed precisely for this purpose. Plus only posting positive reviews can make you look like a company shill. You lose several points of credibility.

So anyway, the minis. A chief goblin and his pet squig from warhammer. What a heartwarming story. A pair of street samurai from Shadowrun, probably noobs, since they aren't cybered up to the gills. Some 15mm ogres for the Battlesystem. They'll be barely goblins if the PC's are in 25mm scale. Zulkir Szass Tam from the forgotten realms setting. One of the few bad guys with a chance of beating Elminster in a straight fight, if your PC's meet him, you know it's serious. Some griffon riding warriors, also AD&D official. A pair of postapocalyptic rebel leaders. The fat one is wearing less clothing than the thin one, and appears to have an armoured codpiece. Thank you for that, designers. An arthurian herald.


TSR Previews: Generic stuff is very much on top this month. The complete druid's handbook shows you how they can be protectors for all terrain, plus the usual supply of kits, roleplaying advice, scary new spells, and a villainous organisation dedicated to the harsher side of nature. They also bring out player packs, prefab sets of character sheets, minis, pen, dice, all the obvious crap. Very much aimed at beginners. And another art book for those of you who don't want to trawl through dozens of places for the odd pretty picture.

Dark sun shows us City by the silt sea. Shane Hensley is expanding on things. There's another really scary undead monster out there. Looks like even Athasian dragons can wind up Dracoliches.

Ravenloft is also undead obsessed, as usual. The Awakening sees another monster unleashed on the world. Thankfully it's stuck in Ravenloft, but that's small comfort if you're trapped in there with it.

The Forgotten Realms gets another R A Salvadore drow novel. Siege of Darkness. Things go horribly wrong, but if anyone deserves it, they do.

The Amazing Engine releases Kromosome. Genetic Engineering + Corporate espionage. Sounds like it would have fitted in with the Top Secret output 5 years ago. More cool toys to build your own game world.


Somewhat better than the last few issues, this is still very much of it's time, but shows a lot more of the positive aspects of that era, in terms of worldbuilding, characterisation, design elements, etc. Remember, even if the average quality goes down, all the good stuff from all the previous eras remains valid, so you can just keep accumulating options with which you can make your game better. You'll just need more time to sort everything out. Now, the big flaw here is our limited lifespans. And since I've now been working on this thread for almost a 10th of my life, I'd better get a move on if I want to get a practical benefit from it. On we go to the next issue.