D&D 5E (2014) Let's Talk About Guns in 5E

[TwoSix]

I don't want to derail the thread further. I have just never really bought the distinction between "combat as sport" and "combat as war".

Have you tried "Combat as Theater" or "Combat as Professional Wrestling"? That was recently going around.

 

[Remathilis]

D&D hasn't been medieval in, well, maybe ever.

There is a strange correlation between edition and medievalism, but probably not why you think. Older D&D (Original, Basic and 1e) are the most grounded in medieval aesthetic but that's due to Gary's wargame background and the style of fantasy in the 70s and early 80s. As D&D evolved though the editions, not only did the game absorb more and more non-strictly medieval elements, but what was accepted as medieval fantasy changed. Compare Strider's look in the LotR cartoons from the 70s and Jackson's 2000 movies to see this.

So the aesthetic of fantasy has changed and D&D has tried to keep up, which is why it's less strict medieval and more a mix of elements from across the last 1000 years...

 

[payn]

Have you tried "Combat as Theater" or "Combat as Professional Wrestling"? That was recently going around.

 

[NotAYakk]

I've got a character lined up for my next game. I'm using the 2014 noble background to have 3 retainers for my cat PC in a greek-based world.

One of them is named "forearm" in greek, is a pacifist wrestler-philosopher, and wears a mask as "communication should be through words, as communication through facial expressions lacks rational grounding".

He's an excuse to pull out professional wresting/Lucha libre/Ancient Greek philosophy jokes.

Roleplaying as wrestling.

 

[Reynard]

There is a strange correlation between edition and medievalism, but probably not why you think. Older D&D (Original, Basic and 1e) are the most grounded in medieval aesthetic but that's due to Gary's wargame background and the style of fantasy in the 70s and early 80s. As D&D evolved though the editions, not only did the game absorb more and more non-strictly medieval elements, but what was accepted as medieval fantasy changed. Compare Strider's look in the LotR cartoons from the 70s and Jackson's 2000 movies to see this.

So the aesthetic of fantasy has changed and D&D has tried to keep up, which is why it's less strict medieval and more a mix of elements from across the last 1000 years...

I feel like the strongest medieval aesthetic was the late 1E, early 2E era. This was High Medieval, of course, but before Planescape, Spelljammer, and Dark.Sun, I recall most covers and interior art to adhere much more closely to the polished medieval look of the Waldenbooks shelf.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

I know that "verisimilitude" and "simulationism" can be seen as dirty words in some people's eyes. And you can work your way around those words by dressing it up as "thematic details" and "aesthetic preferences". But I'm just going to come out and say it:

Guns don't belong in medieval style fantasy. It breaks verisimilitude. It's not realistic. Shotguns, .45s, and sniper rifles are not the equivalent of fireballs, crossbow bolts, and longbows. Armor like chainmail is effectively useless against guns. There's a reason guns completely changed what warfare and violence means to humanity.

D&D means having knights whack each other with swords and wizards blasting each other with spells, and real world guns generally don't fit into that. That doesn't mean you can't have laser guns show up for fun sometimes. That doesn't mean you can't have magitech. That doesn't mean magic has to be scientific.

V-tude needs to be tossed out the window in D&D with regards to what its like on Earth. A single dwarven smith lives hundreds of years. He's been making full plate longer than it was used in our world. An elven smith operates for like 500 years. Any item is going to be near infinitely better engineered compared to what humans made on earth, with mundane materials and no magic. Can you imagine the advances in our understanding/tech if Einstein lived 700 years? Experience builds on itself. Published D&D world histories have the tech locked at some renaissance mish mash for thousands of years. None of it makes sense.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

I feel like the strongest medieval aesthetic was the late 1E, early 2E era.

As someone who knows a little history, that suggestion really grates. More like the strongest 1980s fantasy aesthetic was strongest in the 1980s.

The shift to renaissance is actually a little more aesthetically authentic. Of course Volo was always a trend-setter!

 

[Remathilis]

I feel like the strongest medieval aesthetic was the late 1E, early 2E era. This was High Medieval, of course, but before Planescape, Spelljammer, and Dark.Sun, I recall most covers and interior art to adhere much more closely to the polished medieval look of the Waldenbooks shelf.

I think that came from 2e trying to distance itself from the weird fantasy pulp vibe of earlier D&D and go for a more traditional fantasy look. More Camelot, less Hyperborea.

It's worth noting though that the 2e PHB has a firearm in the PHB (arquebus). So firearms in the PHB goes back to 1989.

 

[Mort]

I know that "verisimilitude" and "simulationism" can be seen as dirty words in some people's eyes. And you can work your way around those words by dressing it up as "thematic details" and "aesthetic preferences". But I'm just going to come out and say it:

Guns don't belong in medieval style fantasy. It breaks verisimilitude. It's not realistic. Shotguns, .45s, and sniper rifles are not the equivalent of fireballs, crossbow bolts, and longbows. Armor like chainmail is effectively useless against guns. There's a reason guns completely changed what warfare and violence means to humanity.

D&D means having knights whack each other with swords and wizards blasting each other with spells, and real world guns generally don't fit into that. That doesn't mean you can't have laser guns show up for fun sometimes. That doesn't mean you can't have magitech. That doesn't mean magic has to be scientific.

There's not liking guns in D&D and then there's verisimilitude.

In my opinion, once magic is introduced verisimilitude has to bend or it's already gone! Guns barely register, IMO, at that point. You need to look at Mythic reality and the like, not how things are on earth (I see @Jefe Bergenstein already ninja'd me while I was typing!)

For example, magic stone. It's a cantrip that essentially gives anyone a 3 shot gun (granted the range is only 60 feet, which is a large difference). But "It's magic" so that's fine?

 

[Mort]

I think that came from 2e trying to distance itself from the weird fantasy pulp vibe of earlier D&D and go for a more traditional fantasy look. More Camelot, less Hyperborea.

It's worth noting though that the 2e PHB has a firearm in the PHB (arquebus). So firearms in the PHB goes back to 1989.

Myrlund (played by Don Kaye) was a paladin/cowboy who used guns in Gygax's original Greyhawk campaign (So 1972). Granted they were "guns" because Gygax didn't allow gunpowder - but the point is guns and D&D go WAY back.