D&D 5E (2014) Let's Talk About Guns in 5E

I know that "verisimilitude" and "simulationism" can be seen as dirty words in some people's eyes. And you can work your way around those words by dressing it up as "thematic details" and "aesthetic preferences". But I'm just going to come out and say it:

Guns don't belong in medieval style fantasy. It breaks verisimilitude. It's not realistic. Shotguns, .45s, and sniper rifles are not the equivalent of fireballs, crossbow bolts, and longbows. Armor like chainmail is effectively useless against guns. There's a reason guns completely changed what warfare and violence means to humanity.
well, you might want to run a gonzo campaign or a western or a modern game or whatever using 5e. because...people are weird and stubborn like that. so .45s and snipers and shotguns could come up in those scenarios.

now, arquebuses and early muskets and single shot pistols and cannons and such...yeah, no, those can 100% fit in medieval style fantasy. although at that point they can mechanically fit in with the other weapons well enough anyway, so that's a bit of a wash.
 

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One of the changes between the 2014 version of the Basic Rules and the 2024 version was the addition of "Musket" and "Pistol" to the included "Martial Ranged Weapons" category. This change also shows up in the SRDs (5.2 has 'em; the OGL-era 5.1 does not). D&D has included even science-fiction 'tech ( Expedition to the Barrier Peaks ) from early on, providing some precedent for DMs who want to deviate rather more significantly from classic medieval-ish stuff.

Range differences are... 'eh; I'd be surprised if most campaigns regularly featured combat engagement at ranges where a '14-era XBE+SS+hand xbow user wielder would be annoyed by even that weapon's limited range.

PF2e tries to make firearms mechanically different without being clearly, broadly superior. To give an example, a PF2e jezail is a bit more expensive than an arbalest and harder to find (firearms are mostly produced and used in certain regions of Golarion, not everywhere), with slightly lower range and the same rate of fire (one action to reload). The jezail has a base damage of 1d8 piercing, while the arbalest does 1d10 piercing. The jezail, however, has the Concussive trait , so it gets treated as doing bludgeoning or piercing damage, whichever is better from the attacker's point of view; it can be fired one-handed; or, it can be fired two-handed via the "Fatal Aim d12" trait. If it is used two-handed, and if the wielder scores a critical hit with it (which, in PF2e, can happen without a natural 20; success by 10+ suffices, while a n20 will also usually be a critical hit because it shifts by one degree of success)... well, while the arbalest would do 1d8x2 for a critical hit, fatal would make the jezail do (1d12x2) + d12 on a critical hit. At shorter ranges, a shortbow user might well outdo a wielder of either arbalest or jezail just through rate of fire, unless the latter has some ability to speed up reloading (e.g. Gunslinger feats); and a longbow user can compete at range, but will be hampered at close range, taking a penalty to hit ( which, in turn, means reduced chance of critical hits...).

Likewise, a dueling pistol... base damage 1d4 piercing, which is rather weak; and it has a modest range; but it can be fired one-handed (with another hand required to actually reload it), it has the "concussive" trait which can be handy if you're dealing with enemies that might be resistant to piercing or to bludgeoning but not both; and it has "Fatal d8", so crits end up doing (1d8x2)+1d8. The hand crossbow has significantly better range, and will do slightly more damage when not scoring critical hits.

They're also given different critical specialization effects (similar to D&D 2024's Weapon Mastery properties, but only triggering on critical hits) with firearms tending to require the target to resist being stunned briefly, while crossbows can inflict persistent bleeding damage, and regular bows pinning targets to a nearby surface until they free themselves.

You could probably port in a lot of properties into D&D, but things like "lower base damage usually, but much higher damage on an excellent hit" -- which relies heavily on PF2e's 10-over/under system in addition to more granular proficiency levels. With 10-over/10-under, you can increase your chances of critical hits by finding ways to debuff the enemy's armor class or buffing your own attack roll. If you only treated it as "low damage normal hits, very damaging critical hits" without straying from D&D 5E's critical hits mostly being n20-related ( there's, what, critical hits on 5' attacks on paralyzed and unconscious enemies?), then crit-fishing is a bit less practical (what, D&D 2014-era elven accuracy gloomstalker fighting darkvision-dependent enemies in the Underdark? :D).
 

D&D hasn't been medieval in, well, maybe ever.
I disagree with that. I'm going as far as saying that D&D was Medieval Fantasy up and until 5e, and only 5e24 really, consciously moved away from medieval, and even then, it still is closer to medieval fantasy than anything else. Yes, even Dark Sun and Planescape. You can refine those genres further, but they are still sub-genres of medieval fantasy.

Medieval fantasy doesn't need and never needed to be historically middle-ages. Heck, even fantasy based on pre-medieval antiquity still fall under the very wide umbrella of "medieval fantasy, which is as wide and varied as "science fiction" (which historically also was a subset of "fantasy").
 

I know that "verisimilitude" and "simulationism" can be seen as dirty words in some people's eyes. And you can work your way around those words by dressing it up as "thematic details" and "aesthetic preferences". But I'm just going to come out and say it:

Guns don't belong in medieval style fantasy. It breaks verisimilitude. It's not realistic.
And, yet, history has firearms existing in the middle ages. Flamethowers, too.
 

I disagree with that. I'm going as far as saying that D&D was Medieval Fantasy up and until 5e, and only 5e24 really, consciously moved away from medieval, and even then, it still is closer to medieval fantasy than anything else. Yes, even Dark Sun and Planescape. You can refine those genres further, but they are still sub-genres of medieval fantasy.
Patently untrue as I discussed above.
 

I disagree with that. I'm going as far as saying that D&D was Medieval Fantasy up and until 5e, and only 5e24 really, consciously moved away from medieval, and even then, it still is closer to medieval fantasy than anything else. Yes, even Dark Sun and Planescape. You can refine those genres further, but they are still sub-genres of medieval fantasy.

Medieval fantasy doesn't need and never needed to be historically middle-ages. Heck, even fantasy based on pre-medieval antiquity still fall under the very wide umbrella of "medieval fantasy, which is as wide and varied as "science fiction" (which historically also was a subset of "fantasy").
A definition that broad suggests a term that isn't much use to anyone. It sounds like what you mean by "medieval fantasy" is "no guns" and "you have to wear armor."
 

Really for me and my group, just comes down to whether the world we're playing in has firearms as part of the visual aesthetic of fantasy combat we're going for. I don't particularly care about anachronism where it doesn't conflict with our shared headspace. Like I've heard D&D is often a Renaissance era game, and in that context guns make sense. But a lot of the fantasy worlds we go for is older. And while there are other things that would be anachronistic, they don't have as stark an effect as a gun would. Or it's just easier to reskin. Sure, full body plate in the knight style is contemporaneous, but there's older forms of armor that are full-body as far back as the bronze age. But I don't see the need to reskin a firearm when bows already exist.

Now, for games that do have guns, I really don't like the reload or extra damage dice thing that's often included. I'd much rather use bows, crossbows, and guns as analogs of melee weapons. Meaning a 1d12 or 2d6 cap. I get that the reload mechanic is meant to mitigate damage in some way, but personally I think its impact is more deleterious than it merits.

As for simulationism, I don't want my combat to have some simulation for one weapon type and none for the others. I'd rather the simulation be upheld through descriptions and roleplay.

For example, I don't want a gun to deal more damage than a melee weapon. I shot to the forehead is as fatal as a decapitation, and it doesn't matter if it's a bullet or an arrow that goes clean through that precious brain matter. I'd much rather answer "why did that orc take 20 shots to the chest before dying" the exact same way I answer how that other orc took 20 dagger stabs to the chest.
 

My only issue with modern firearms in D&D is the volume of fire someone can deliver in a 6 second round. I can dump 30 bullets easily and accurately into a target at 7-10 meters in 6 seconds with a “standard issued” semi-automatic assault rifle. Don’t get me started on full-auto weapons, where it can be up to hundreds of rounds in a minute. I don’t advocate for simulating reality in a TTRPG, but I can’t in good faith simply ignore this, because it is the biggest advantage modern firearms bring to a fight.

So the question then becomes how to adjudicate a high volume of fire without ruining the fantasy of being able to fill a mutant crab full of lead?
 

V-tude needs to be tossed out the window in D&D with regards to what its like on Earth.
I consider what you describe is "realism". Verisimilitude is the term used because people whined about any use of realism for inability to suspend disbelief, and is used for immersion in the given fantasy world rather than any connection to the real world.
 

PF2e tries to make firearms mechanically different without being clearly, broadly superior. To give an example, a PF2e jezail is a bit more expensive than an arbalest and harder to find (firearms are mostly produced and used in certain regions of Golarion, not everywhere), with slightly lower range and the same rate of fire (one action to reload). The jezail has a base damage of 1d8 piercing, while the arbalest does 1d10 piercing. The jezail, however, has the Concussive trait , so it gets treated as doing bludgeoning or piercing damage, whichever is better from the attacker's point of view; it can be fired one-handed; or, it can be fired two-handed via the "Fatal Aim d12" trait. If it is used two-handed, and if the wielder scores a critical hit with it (which, in PF2e, can happen without a natural 20; success by 10+ suffices, while a n20 will also usually be a critical hit because it shifts by one degree of success)... well, while the arbalest would do 1d8x2 for a critical hit, fatal would make the jezail do (1d12x2) + d12 on a critical hit. At shorter ranges, a shortbow user might well outdo a wielder of either arbalest or jezail just through rate of fire, unless the latter has some ability to speed up reloading (e.g. Gunslinger feats); and a longbow user can compete at range, but will be hampered at close range, taking a penalty to hit ( which, in turn, means reduced chance of critical hits...).

Likewise, a dueling pistol... base damage 1d4 piercing, which is rather weak; and it has a modest range; but it can be fired one-handed (with another hand required to actually reload it), it has the "concussive" trait which can be handy if you're dealing with enemies that might be resistant to piercing or to bludgeoning but not both; and it has "Fatal d8", so crits end up doing (1d8x2)+1d8. The hand crossbow has significantly better range, and will do slightly more damage when not scoring critical hits.

They're also given different critical specialization effects (similar to D&D 2024's Weapon Mastery properties, but only triggering on critical hits) with firearms tending to require the target to resist being stunned briefly, while crossbows can inflict persistent bleeding damage, and regular bows pinning targets to a nearby surface until they free themselves.

You could probably port in a lot of properties into D&D, but things like "lower base damage usually, but much higher damage on an excellent hit" -- which relies heavily on PF2e's 10-over/under system in addition to more granular proficiency levels. With 10-over/10-under, you can increase your chances of critical hits by finding ways to debuff the enemy's armor class or buffing your own attack roll. If you only treated it as "low damage normal hits, very damaging critical hits" without straying from D&D 5E's critical hits mostly being n20-related ( there's, what, critical hits on 5' attacks on paralyzed and unconscious enemies?), then crit-fishing is a bit less practical (what, D&D 2014-era elven accuracy gloomstalker fighting darkvision-dependent enemies in the Underdark? :D).
i don't really like pf2e's approach to guns for a few different reasons, but the fundamental one is that it makes them only really practical if you specialize in them, and basically useless otherwise. which is...like...the exact opposite of why they became popular to begin with. it feels a little silly.
A definition that broad suggests a term that isn't much use to anyone. It sounds like what you mean by "medieval fantasy" is "no guns" and "you have to wear armor."
and since dark sun is there you can apparently skip the armor, too.
My only issue with modern firearms in D&D is the volume of fire someone can deliver in a 6 second round. I can dump 30 bullets easily and accurately into a target at 7-10 meters in 6 seconds with a “standard issued” semi-automatic assault rifle. Don’t get me started on full-auto weapons, where it can be up to hundreds of rounds in a minute. I don’t advocate for simulating reality in a TTRPG, but I can’t in good faith simply ignore this, because it is the biggest advantage modern firearms bring to a fight.

So the question then becomes how to adjudicate a high volume of fire without ruining the fantasy of being able to fill a mutant crab full of lead?
the bolded is fundamentally an oxymoron (assault rifles are definitionally select fire - if it's semi-auto only, it cannot be an assault rifle [and also calling a civilian rifle "standard issue" is...uhm...inherently nonsensical? maybe you meant cheap or out-of-the-box?]), but that aside probably the easiest way to handle this is weapon properties that give certain benefits (and possibly drawbacks) for using more ammunition on an attack. like as a simple example you could have a property that lets you spend x additional rounds up to a certain limit to get y bonus to the damage roll (say, every 2 additional shots you fire gives you a +1 damage bonus, and you can spend up to maybe 6 additional rounds per attack). if you want to balance that further, maybe every shot you fire past the first reduces the short range of that attack by 5 or 10 feet.

or you can just ignore it. but there's ways to address it if you really want to.
 

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