D&D 5E (2014) Let's Talk About Guns in 5E

[Bayushi_seikuro]

In a campaign I ran, we used firearms, but they had a specific history.

It was a post apocalyptic impact-winter world, where the calamity was caused by Ymir's corpse dying on another plane's Ragnarok and plummeting through the planes until it impacted with this world. Evil and chaotic factions rose, as the goodly races began to retreat - the elves had magic domed cities, the humans huddled in massive holds, etc.

But someone had to buy them time. The halflings decided to hold the gap in a last stand, bolstered by the gnomes and their inventions - firearms and warforged. In the end, civilization was largely saved, short of the wood elves turning to Yeegnoghu and becoming savage meat eaters. All but 200 halflings died.

It was an interesting campaign, because one PC was a gnome artificer with a shotgun he'd made, and a construct St Bernard for a mount. A mission had them go out to attempt to retrieve the lost lore of the halfling culture, massive cooking tomes which doubled as their history as well as alchemical recipes. They were meant to also retrieve the last sheriff's badge and guns if possible, as rightful heirlooms for their culture.

They met the guardian - the last halfling sheriff, turned into a wight, still single handedly holding off what he could of the orc hordes. Through good roleplay and the use of an infusion to make the sheriff's rifle no longer need ammo, the sheriff allowed them to take the badge, books and his revolvers to return to the people.

Long story long... mechanically I didn't find firearms to be any different than missile weapons. The only trait I really added was that shotguns specifically ignore the zombie trait where they have a chance to not drop and just stay at one hp. It seemed fitting

 

[Parmandur]

Guns did not fit in OD&D or AD&D because even though the rules, for a war game, are fast and loose and abstract...they work on a mathematical curve that worked for a certain range of possibilities. Firearms change the math too much to work as a Gygax Ian fast and loose war game, and the AC/HP regime cannot account for how they change the game.

3E/5E are not really doing thst anymore, so they fit, but maybe less in terms of genre.

The big issue is that guns obvkaye armor: platemail will not help one bit against an AK-47, it will get torn up like toilet paper. It is a mathematical singularity for the value of armor versus weapon.

That's why d20 Modern had to adapt armor as damage reduction, to give guns a role on a different scale than a big stick or hunk of metal. And thst is what the Cosmere RPG is doing with guns: armor provides damage reduction which works against melee weapons, but guns bypass the reduction, so characters in Mistborn Era 2 don't bother with armor because it is ineffective.

 

[Rocker26a]

The big issue is that guns obvkaye armor: platemail will not help one bit against an AK-47, it will get torn up like toilet paper.

It's been mentioned before; I don't think anyone is seriously advocating for modern firearms in D&D. Those that like firearms for D&D, it's your Arquebus, Teppo, Matchlocks, Wheellocks, Flintlocks, Caplocks etc. I think the cut-off point for most is cartridge revolvers and their contemporaries, in such instances where a facet of Western aesthetic is desired. Which I'd personally endorse! It's fun! Doesn't have to impose that much on the other elements!

And yeah, you can almost certainly make musketballs having a chance of getting through armour, or getting lucky and finding a gap or whatever, make sense. No more trouble than a crossbow bolt, it's fine. Make it deal Bludgeoning damage instead if you like.

 

[Reynard]

It's been mentioned before; I don't think anyone is seriously advocating for modern firearms in D&D.

I am. Or rather, I am saying that given 5E's design ethos around combat there is no reason you can't have gunslingers or commandos in D&D. The biggest hurdle would probably be figuring out a decent balance for autofire. Otherwise, combat is so abstract and arbitrary that "guns" are just another way to deal 2d6 damage or whatever.

 

[AlViking]

I think all world building should serve play, so if part of the world building is "guns vs wizards" what that looks like should be less focused on whether it is "logical" and more focused on what makes a better, more gameable setting. The Mages Guild versus the Gunsmith Consortium is an interesting idea for a faction conflict in a setting, actually.

ETA: Even better if mages were originally responsible for inventing powder!

Guns vs wizards, or wizards with guns for that matter, is fine. Just like no guns is fine. In the case of no guns in a world with the technology level to have plate armor I want a reason to not have guns.

 

[Parmandur]

It's been mentioned before; I don't think anyone is seriously advocating for modern firearms in D&D. Those that like firearms for D&D, it's your Arquebus, Teppo, Matchlocks, Wheellocks, Flintlocks, Caplocks etc. I think the cut-off point for most is cartridge revolvers and their contemporaries, in such instances where a facet of Western aesthetic is desired. Which I'd personally endorse! It's fun! Doesn't have to impose that much on the other elements!

And yeah, you can almost certainly make musketballs having a chance of getting through armour, or getting lucky and finding a gap or whatever, make sense. No more trouble than a crossbow bolt, it's fine. Make it deal Bludgeoning damage instead if you like.

Thing is, and Gygax the historical warfare wink and hardcore war gamer knew this, even early firearms are a mathematical singularity that wrecks the HP/ACrough and ready abstraction. I don't know if that really matters so much in current D&D, which is more of a balanced game situation aiming at cinematic action rather than a wargame simulation.

 

[500 Toads]

AD&D had tables for weapon-vs-armor-class hit modifiers that could have been used to ~address such issues, but that got dropped by the time D&D 5E rolled around.

I suppose that if you wanted to make firearms reduce the value of armor without overhauling the system dramatically (such as changing armor to largely be direct damage mitigation rather than hit chance reduction, where different attack types might have different degrees of armor piercing etc), and without creating such a weapon-vs-armor table... you could try something like imposing an AC reduction -- e.g. reducing the (AC-10) difference; but that will also make it counter dexterity unless you complicate things further, which you probably were trying to avoid if you're playing D&D 5E in the first place.

 

[WhammeWhamme]

I've never seen the issue with firearms in DnD, and I'd definitely allow them assuming that particular setting supports them (pistol and musket that is, not the advanced firearms from the dmg).

I know a lot of people say that guns instantly make it not fantasy, but as I hopped over to DnD from Warhammer, firearms like those used by The Empire are a fantasy staple for me.

Yeah, I think this kinda undercuts arguments about guns being impossible to include. Fantasy wargaming tends to include guns these days.

D&D not doing so is an aesthetic choice, not an impossible mechanical design choice.


And I think it can be fun to make the opposite choice. And to support it. Might as well link to the game I worked on in this space.


(5e compatible conversion of a wargame setting that's similar to the Warhammer World)

 

[Remathilis]

Thing is, and Gygax the historical warfare win

Gary Gygax also invented studded leather armor by misidentifying a picture of lamellar. I don't fully trust his analysis of ballistic either.

 

[Marc17]

Thing is, and Gygax the historical warfare wink and hardcore war gamer knew this, even early firearms are a mathematical singularity that wrecks the HP/ACrough and ready abstraction. I don't know if that really matters so much in current D&D, which is more of a balanced game situation aiming at cinematic action rather than a wargame simulation.

I don't think they imply any sort of mathematical specialness especially. HP are not meat points* (until they are). All the bullets sparking off of railings and making poofs of dust as they hit around the running action hero are hits draining them of hit points, just as all the arrows that hit our adventurers aren't actually sticking out of them like some Frank Miller comic. Its not like a bullet to the head is going to cause significantly more damage that even an average strength man actually hitting you in the head with an arming sword. We seem to have a holy terror of guns that think they are death, but that is only because we do not experience more people getting hit with melee weapons with intent to kill. (and we have unrealistic idea of ability hit targets in the heat of battle with guns)

*Although I have been contrary at times and said HP are meat points and while a commoner gets stuck in the stomach with a knife and bleeds out, a hero can take a broadsword through the sternum and keep fighting. That is just the nature of heroic fantasy. Of course, I've also said that our characters in D&D are not actually human but creatures made of a spongy sort of flesh that gets tougher with experience and not much organs to speak of. Thus why there are no broken bones and other long term injuries in D&D. Then I wax on about how HP are logarithmic which is why only the last one matters.