Let's talk about minions...

[Wyrmshadows]

The whole idea of simmulationist gamist et al just rubs me the wrong way. If you're into it, cool, but for me. Eh I find it's people arbvitrarily defining what simulates reality based on personal tastes and what side of an argument they want to be on.

The idea of HP simulating how tough something is seems the most wonky thing in the world to me...

Nothing breaks my "emersion" more then the fighter or barbarian looking at a horde of archers and saying... "Eh... I have enough hit points. Even if they all do max damage I'll be able to get over there and take em out."

WTF???

This is why I use WP/VP or with True20 a damage track which prevents this kind of metagaming silliness immediately or I like Runequest with its gritty combat system.

[... snip] There's also another category, but it's not really a level. It's called Hero. People in this category are called heros. Heros are generally of the standard level, but they have this unique ability to continuously improve their ability to tap into Moxie the more times they do "cool stuff." Most people can only improve their status occasionaly. Like sometimes they just get better at it, but usually only a few times per lifetime. Heros though- these guys continuosly improve.

So uh... yeah. Simmulate away.

Hey man, I am not arguing. I am making my points dispassionately on a message board thread dedicated to this subject. Anyway, I am not arguing for the believabiliy of the HP mechanic...I would never do that because it has left a bad taste in my mouth for years. However I am not a fan of rules that warp and weave around the PC as if some sort of quantum flux exists around them that changes the nature of reality in the setting with their arrival. I am a fan of mechanical consistancy in which the heroes may have greater moxie perhaps due to a destiny, fate, luck, etc. but not so much that reality is utterly fluid until they walk onto a stage that adapts to them.

Time was when this flexibility was in the hands of the DM, behind the screen where he or she would adjust things on the fly for the sake of the story. The PCs wouldn't be allowed to know the DM is tweaking reality for or against them and would often cry foul if they found out.

Now, with minion rules, the DM's heroic fudge option is now written into the rules. The reason I wouldn't tell my PC I was fudging was because they would feel more heroic (I would never turn bad guys into soap bubbles) and I could adjust this on the fly to make it a dramatic fight. My PCs would be extremely disappointed if they new I "cheated" on their behalf even if I did it very rarely. My DMness always stayed behind the curtain because I am Oz the Great and Powerful. The minion rules show what's under the hood and it isn't IMO terribly heroic.

Can we all be friends again and go kill some orcs?

I am just stating my position and, as a brother to all mankind, love everyone here.


Wyrmshadows

 

[ExploderWizard]

RE: Moxie

Moxie works well as a way to describe hit points. It still doesn't do anything for minions.

So your badass fonzie heroes just clobbered a bunch of no-moxie kindergarden nerds. Are they feeling any more heroic, proud, or satisfied after describing it like that?

 

[Scribble]

Wyrm:

I wasn't really trying to prove anyone right or wrong... Just showing why I feel the idea of simulationist vrs gamist or whatever to be kind of weird... It's flexible and somewhat arbitrary in my opinion.

Argument was probably a bad word on my part... I will happily debate with anyone about just about anything, but if it's an argument I try to step out. Debates are fun, arguments are not.

In the end, if you dissagree with my playstyle I'm not going to be offended, as long as you're enjoying whatever you're playing!

(You might not have as much fun with me DMing though unless you can jive with the story dictating things more then the numbers though...)

RE: Moxie

Moxie works well as a way to describe hit points. It still doesn't do anything for minions.

So your badass fonzie heroes just clobbered a bunch of no-moxie kindergarden nerds. Are they feeling any more heroic, proud, or satisfied after describing it like that?

Shrug?

That's up to them. Does Luke feel heroic when he clobbers storm troopers? He still had to deal with them to achieve an overall goal though.

 

[The Little Raven]

The fonz? He had Moxie...

He must have been snorting it by the fistful if he thought jumping the shark was a good idea.

 

[Engilbrand]

I've used minions a few times now. Yes, my players feel heroic when they get to describe staring down other powerhouses while bashing the guys in their way to get to said powerhouse. They enjoy breathing gas and causing the faces of some foes to melt away.
My players love minions.

 

[AllisterH]

RE: Moxie

Moxie works well as a way to describe hit points. It still doesn't do anything for minions.

So your badass fonzie heroes just clobbered a bunch of no-moxie kindergarden nerds. Are they feeling any more heroic, proud, or satisfied after describing it like that?

Ah, but they're NOT kindergarten nerds though.

THAT would be using kobolds versus a level 16 character. Said character could literally stand there and not do anything and not worry.

Which is NOT how Drizzt, Conan et al treat minions. All those orcs Drizzt killed, he HAD to use some effort since if he didn't, one decent slash from them would kill HIM and the same applies for Conan.

Lower level monsters would work as minions except the players know that they can't be hurt from said monsters and thus see them as trash.

 

[D'karr]

Um, if you're using HP = model of the world, doesn't that bring up a huge list of problems?

I mean, Caramon from DL died from a broken neck after missing a step in his house and you of course, have the silliness that is a housecat that can kill an adult.

Using HP=model of the world brings up a whole swath of problems....

Show me a Caramon that dies from a fall and I'll show you an NPC that needed to die as a plot device. Show me a housecat that kills an adult and I'll show you a game in which NPCs and creatures are being used outside of their intended purpose.

 

[ExploderWizard]

Ah, but they're NOT kindergarten nerds though.

THAT would be using kobolds versus a level 16 character. Said character could literally stand there and not do anything and not worry.

They kind of ARE though. Its about relative moxie. The heroes have tons of it and the minions next to none, no matter if they are kobolds or balors. One hard stare and a heyyyyyyyyy puts them down equally well.

 

[Scribble]

It's also important to remember that mowing down minions isn't always about "feeling heroic."

It's sort of the moxie version of a guy flexing his biceps before a fight or two dogs barring their teeth...

The big bad guy doesn't know you have Moxie. In fact it's almost impossible to tell someone has it. Sometimes it's assumed, as people with Moxie tend to gravitate towards important positions, but this isn't always the case. There are also some learned sages who can tell... They tend to appear as old men wearing fedoras who can look at you, and say "you got Moxie kid..." while winking.

The big badguy just sees you as another shmuck that needs to be shown how powerful he is. So he sends his henchmen against you assuming you're just going to be kileld while he goes back to recojiggering his giant moon carving laser beam.

Mowing down the minions is equal to saying: "I don't think so jerkwad!"

It lets the big bad know you aren't just another shlob. You got Moxie.

He must have been snorting it by the fistful if he thought jumping the shark was a good idea.

Nah... not even Moxie can stand up against the forces of a DM who doesn't know when to end a campaign.

 

[Wyrmshadows]

Show me a Caramon that dies from a fall and I'll show you an NPC that needed to die as a plot device. Show me a housecat that kills an adult and I'll show you a game in which NPCs and creatures are being used outside of their intended purpose.

QFT


Wyrmshadows