Level Adjustment Alternative

[IllithidFan]

I registered just to post this thread after seeing many other systems proposed as alternatives for LA. I believe the 3.5 LA system is the pits, and from reading on here and other forums many others probably do as well. And as it stands, no one has been able to offer a good, simple solution that I have seen thus far so I want to propose one. Excuse me if this has already been posted somewhere.

Now it is true that most (reasonable) level adjustments become less and less important as a character increases in level, especially in casters, so I believe a correct system should not limit a player to the degree of being several levels behind just because they want to play as some kind of LA +4 monster they really like, but should impose a slower progression that accurately accounts for character improvements based on the chosen race/template.

Here are my proposals:

First, imposing an experience point penalty to all character levels based on the size of the LA. For instance that +4 LA monster race would cost 10,000 XP (or multiply it by 1.5 if you think this progression is too quick). THIS SHOULD NOT BE IMPOSED AS A ONE-TIME NEGATIVE XP PENALTY. This would allow characters to play with a massive LA from level 1, possibly becoming immune to all damage or something equally broken. This XP penalty should instead be applied incrementally.

I could see this working 2 ways. First, make the player pay it all off by level 4, charging the player an extra 2500 per level. This would put the player a good way behind at the beginning but would allow that character to catch up by later levels when LA becomes less important. Second, the XP value of the intended race or template (in the above example 10,00) could be divided by the total XP to reach level 20 (212,000) giving a percentage XP penalty that would be applied to every level, 1 through 20, in the above example 5%. I would not recommend this approach as it works the opposite way as the above method - the character only realizes their full XP penalty at high levels (level 20 to be exact) rather than early levels as in the prior example.

I have an expanded idea for this for people who use Savage Species rules that uses an XP penalty as above but racial abilities slowly accrue as the player pays the penalty, but it is late so I will post it tomorrow.

 

[Sekhmet]

I see several problems with the proposed ideas.
In the first scenario, the player character is still too strong to be in an ECL1 party - the very reason races are given LA in the first place.
In the second scenario, most DMs that I've heard argue about the subject have decided to hand waive EXP penalties from multiclassing because it is a pain to keep track of and ultimately serves little purpose other than to harass players who choose to dip. Adding additional penalties for choosing an abnormal race in the form of already despised mechanics doesn't make sense.
In the third scenario, using Savage Species' method of breaking LA up into a per level basis would bring about the same dissatisfaction to established races that it did to the majority of the book. I know many DMs, myself included, omit the book from use entirely.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

In the third scenario, using Savage Species' method of breaking LA up into a per level basis would bring about the same dissatisfaction to established races that it did to the majority of the book. I know many DMs, myself included, omit the book from use entirely.

Personally, I like Monte Cook's refinement of the SS method, which:

1) makes all the racial levels into fully fleshed out levels, with BAB, save & HD adjustments, etc.

2) lets you take only as many racial levels as you want, and have no requirement to take any.

3) makes racial class levels not matter when figuring out multiclass penalties (if you use them)

 

[Jackinthegreen]

Personally, I like Monte Cook's refinement of the SS method, which:

1) makes all the racial levels into fully fleshed out levels, with BAB, save & HD adjustments, etc.

2) lets you take only as many racial levels as you want, and have no requirement to take any.

3) makes racial class levels not matter when figuring out multiclass penalties (if you use them)

Is this one of his pet projects that he just informed people of, or did it take any hold in 3.5? Turning LA into HD is definitely needed. Oslecamo over on the MinMax boards has hundreds of monsters updated this way, although his revisions aren't quite in line with the actual creatures. Part of it is HD=CR, and he's put limits on massive stat bonuses, mostly strength. An ogre only gets +3 strength for instance, although its other racial abilities help make up for that.

 

[udalrich]

In the first scenario, the player character is still too strong to be in an ECL1 party - the very reason races are given LA in the first place.

Entirely correct.

In the second scenario, most DMs that I've heard argue about the subject have decided to hand waive EXP penalties from multiclassing because it is a pain to keep track of and ultimately serves little purpose other than to harass players who choose to dip. Adding additional penalties for choosing an abnormal race in the form of already despised mechanics doesn't make sense.

I don't think this is a valid point. XP penalties for multi-classing are disliked because they do not really accomplish much other than preventing some players from playing the character that they want to play. If a Fighter 5/Ranger 3/Cleric 3/Rogue 2 Dwarf or Human is perfectly acceptable, why is the same class combination in an Elf deserving of fairly significant penalties?

LA as an XP penalty does not suffer from this problem. An Ogre Barbarian 1 is clearly stronger than a Dwarf Barbarian 1, so it needs some disadvantage.

That said, this still does not address the issue that a party of an Ogre and humans will be "The Ogre and Followers", not a balanced party where everyone contributes.

In the third scenario, using Savage Species' method of breaking LA up into a per level basis would bring about the same dissatisfaction to established races that it did to the majority of the book. I know many DMs, myself included, omit the book from use entirely.

I think something like this is probably required. SS may not have done it correctly, but some sort of system where you are weaker than the standard creature at first level and grow into your full power is required. This might be mixed with something where your deficit of class levels at higher levels decreases.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Is this one of his pet projects that he just informed people of, or did it take any hold in 3.5? Turning LA into HD is definitely needed. Oslecamo over on the MinMax boards has hundreds of monsters updated this way, although his revisions aren't quite in line with the actual creatures. Part of it is HD=CR, and he's put limits on massive stat bonuses, mostly strength. An ogre only gets +3 strength for instance, although its other racial abilities help make up for that.

My apologies!

He used that system revision in his Arcana Unearthed/Arcana Evolved RPG (3Ed & 3.5Ed versions, respectively)- a D&D alternative/clone- for his world's PC race fae, giants, and a few other races.

 

[Sekhmet]

[MENTION=19675]Dannyalcatraz[/MENTION], @Uldarich, I vehemently hate the idea of racial levels leading up to a race's full power. The fact of the matter is that you are or are not an Illithid, Vampire, Ogre, etc. There aren't gradient levels of race, you are or are not. There is no amount of experience that can change how much of a race you are.

 

[Sekhmet]

Double post.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

[MENTION=19675]Dannyalcatraz[/MENTION], @Uldarich, I vehemently hate the idea of racial levels leading up to a race's full power. The fact of the matter is that you are or are not an Illithid, Vampire, Ogre, etc. There aren't gradient levels of race, you are or are not. There is no amount of experience that can change how much of a race you are.

Assume, for a moment, that I am a human being.

From past experience, I can tell you that my past peak strength was about 14 in D&D terms. Some of that was a natural gift, but I had to work at it to get it that high. Had I continued to work at it, who knows?

Much the same could be said of other gifts I have.

Any species has natural variation within it, and even things we take for granted may be absent. All mammals have hair...except those with allopecia. All humans have 2 arms & legs from birth...except those that don't. Bad nutrition can stunt growth.

Further, some species can change radically over time. Certain fish, for instance, can change gender. Mnot all do- it only happens under certain circumstances, and then, only to a few members of the community. Some creatures experience additionsl changes to their physiques if and only if they attain alpha status within their communities- stronger muscles, thicker hides, etc.- a process that starts when they challenge for leadership, but only completes if they win.

What the racial levels do is take certain aspects from being absolutely ineherent and move them to being cultural or potential benefits. Two Minotaurs may have the same potential for growth, but the one who is bookish and becomes a Mage may never develop the massive muscles of his warrior cousin. A Githezerai raised away from his people and their home environs may never develop the preternatural grace and Psi-like abilities of his kin.

 

[Jackinthegreen]

@Dannyalcatraz , @Uldarich, I vehemently hate the idea of racial levels leading up to a race's full power. The fact of the matter is that you are or are not an Illithid, Vampire, Ogre, etc. There aren't gradient levels of race, you are or are not. There is no amount of experience that can change how much of a race you are.

Every creature started somewhere. That ogre wasn't suddenly born with four Giant hit dice. Why should the player not be able to play a creature because its full "power" is attained later than the level the rest of the party is at? Are you basing the definition of the creature on the stat blocks it was arbitrarily assigned by WotC or something?

If they had given everything various levels of power like with dragons, would you be saying that? A dragon is a dragon from the moment it hatches, regardless of the rest of its statistics, just like an ogre is an ogre from the moment it's born just like X creature is X creature from the moment it is created.