D&D 5E Level drains, old school adventures and 5e - a proposed alternative?
- Thread starter Ancalagon
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marcelvdpol
Explorer
You could do the ability recovery as one point per long rest and the max hp recovery as a single hit die (roll for the ho recovered) per long rest.
Life drain works fine, the only thing that make it feel meh, is the fact that it's mostly too easy to recover from. In some ways this can be blamed (if you have a problem with it) on the fact that most 5e monster abilities are more short term danger oriented, rather than long term.
In combat the ability is crazy dangerous. Most life draining monsters tend to have a decent amount of damage, already the lowly specter has 3d6 necrotic damage. This makes the crits by life draining enemies especially dangerous. Same with being attacked by multiple life draining enemies. The another danger in those fights fights is the health drop. Not only can less health be restored, but also there is a smaller minus HP threshold after dropping the character to 0. Lose too much max hp and the next hit might not require con roll from you.
An easy fix for causing long term issues would perhaps be limiting the amount of max hp you can recover. For example: long rest and lesser restoration (if the life drain entry on the monster allows for that) only recover a limited amount of max hp, for example prof bonus + con mod or EDIT: amount of single hit die or so on.
Or just raise the constitution save DC on the abilities and require a new constitution save when the character attempts to recover without special aid. If he fails, then he doesnt recover the lost max hp and has to roll the save next ling rest again. Making it possible that the loss sticks for some time. I would probably add something a la if you fail the recovery roll by 5 or more "a shadow sickness" has taken root in you with effects that actually become more detrimental over time, forcing the characters to make haste for nearest temple/master healer/campaign setting's version of Rivendell and so on.
In combat the ability is crazy dangerous. Most life draining monsters tend to have a decent amount of damage, already the lowly specter has 3d6 necrotic damage. This makes the crits by life draining enemies especially dangerous. Same with being attacked by multiple life draining enemies. The another danger in those fights fights is the health drop. Not only can less health be restored, but also there is a smaller minus HP threshold after dropping the character to 0. Lose too much max hp and the next hit might not require con roll from you.
An easy fix for causing long term issues would perhaps be limiting the amount of max hp you can recover. For example: long rest and lesser restoration (if the life drain entry on the monster allows for that) only recover a limited amount of max hp, for example prof bonus + con mod or EDIT: amount of single hit die or so on.
Or just raise the constitution save DC on the abilities and require a new constitution save when the character attempts to recover without special aid. If he fails, then he doesnt recover the lost max hp and has to roll the save next ling rest again. Making it possible that the loss sticks for some time. I would probably add something a la if you fail the recovery roll by 5 or more "a shadow sickness" has taken root in you with effects that actually become more detrimental over time, forcing the characters to make haste for nearest temple/master healer/campaign setting's version of Rivendell and so on.
Sacrosanct
Legend
I third exhaustion. Judging by the responses whenever it's talked about (usually in the context of the barbarian ability that trigger it), is that people hate exhaustion. It's not easily recoverable from (without spells like greater restoration), but also doesn't force you to mess around with your core stats on your character sheet. And risking getting an exhaustion level with every successful hit+failed save? In the immortal words of Jeremy Clarkson, that would cause "some poo to come out" from the fear.
Jester David
Hero
Rather than actually draining xp, what about a penalty? So the character gets 1/2 the regular amount of experience? They don't lose a level, but their progress is slowed?
Alternatively, there could be a Pathfinder-esque penalty system where you take a -1 or -2 to all ability checks, saving throws, and attacks paired with a reduction of hit points.
Alternatively, there could be a Pathfinder-esque penalty system where you take a -1 or -2 to all ability checks, saving throws, and attacks paired with a reduction of hit points.
Shadowdweller00
Hero
I fourth (?) exhaustion? Draining max hp is a little scary, BUT when it is recovered after a long rest AND players don't have to slog through a full seven encounters per long rest, it doesn't prove much of a deterrence. I miss the days when undead were actually scary. One alternate solution - players can spend 7 days resting to restore one hit die's worth of max HP; Lesser restoration will also restore one hit die's worth - but inflicts 1 level of exhaustion every time it does so. (Greater restoration restores everything without exhaustion). But really, it's probably much more simple and elegant just to have life drain inflict a level of exhaustion rather than any of the above.
Some monsters, like the Chasme demon, which have the potential to drain large amounts of Max HP may or may not become less threatening by comparison.
Some monsters, like the Chasme demon, which have the potential to drain large amounts of Max HP may or may not become less threatening by comparison.
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Draining max HP can be frightening, but it has to be coupled with some heavy hitting bad guys in the following encounters. It is easier for the PCs to go unconscious in an encounter, and it can bring back the specter of a PC with low HP getting killed outright by devastating damage. Having the PC's max HP reduced means that it is easier for damage to hit their negative max HP.
Ability drain works, but it can create a bit of a bookkeeping nightmare. It is easiest to track a negative modifier to all rolls that use that ability (i.e. record that you currently have 2 less than normal so your +9 Wisdom saving throw is now +9-2 = +7) rather than changing the Wisdom numbers all over the character sheet.
In the process of converting the Age of Worms 3.5 AP, I ran into lots of creatures that caused level drain or Constitution loss. The ones that have a 5e analog did max HP drain, so I had the custom monsters do that as well. The PCs had to decide between using a precious spell slot for greater restoration (when someone even had that) vs. holding out for a long rest. In other cases, such as poison, I had the poison or other effect cause disadvantage on d20 rolls using that ability until the PC was cured.
Don't forget that negative levels went away after 24 hours, similar to how 5e removes the effect after a long rest. The difference is that 3.5 required a Constitution saving throw for each negative level. Failure caused a loss of an actual level. A close equivalent would be to have the PC roll a constitution saving throw for each hit die worth of max HP that needs to be recovered (maximum amount, so a d12 would be worth 12 HP). Failures do not recover that portion of the last max HP and the PC recovers 1 fewer hit die at the end of the long rest. The PC can attempt to recover the failed max HP again after another long rest.
By and large it seems to me that 5e resources are more limited than in 3.5 (at least the scale of modifiers is lower). That and the fact that most balance for monsters and PCs is done by a combination of damage and HP means that a PC with lower max HP is definitely at a disadvantage.
Ability drain works, but it can create a bit of a bookkeeping nightmare. It is easiest to track a negative modifier to all rolls that use that ability (i.e. record that you currently have 2 less than normal so your +9 Wisdom saving throw is now +9-2 = +7) rather than changing the Wisdom numbers all over the character sheet.
In the process of converting the Age of Worms 3.5 AP, I ran into lots of creatures that caused level drain or Constitution loss. The ones that have a 5e analog did max HP drain, so I had the custom monsters do that as well. The PCs had to decide between using a precious spell slot for greater restoration (when someone even had that) vs. holding out for a long rest. In other cases, such as poison, I had the poison or other effect cause disadvantage on d20 rolls using that ability until the PC was cured.
Don't forget that negative levels went away after 24 hours, similar to how 5e removes the effect after a long rest. The difference is that 3.5 required a Constitution saving throw for each negative level. Failure caused a loss of an actual level. A close equivalent would be to have the PC roll a constitution saving throw for each hit die worth of max HP that needs to be recovered (maximum amount, so a d12 would be worth 12 HP). Failures do not recover that portion of the last max HP and the PC recovers 1 fewer hit die at the end of the long rest. The PC can attempt to recover the failed max HP again after another long rest.
By and large it seems to me that 5e resources are more limited than in 3.5 (at least the scale of modifiers is lower). That and the fact that most balance for monsters and PCs is done by a combination of damage and HP means that a PC with lower max HP is definitely at a disadvantage.
This, exactly. Make it last until the next time the PC levels up, and it'll sting a lot worse. Or require some kind of quest or special resource to remove it. (Do make sure to adjust the spells that restore max hit points, though.)
Max hp drain is nice because you can calibrate the scariness of it, simply by adjusting the recovery conditions.
