D&D 5E Level drains, old school adventures and 5e - a proposed alternative?

[TheCosmicKid]

Ability drain works, but it can create a bit of a bookkeeping nightmare. It is easiest to track a negative modifier to all rolls that use that ability (i.e. record that you currently have 2 less than normal so your +9 Wisdom saving throw is now +9-2 = +7) rather than changing the Wisdom numbers all over the character sheet.

Yeah, definitely don't change the numbers on your character sheet, just track the penalty. But even this can be a bit of a hassle for some groups. It's a matter of remembering every time you make a Wisdom-based roll. It can also affect prepped spells and other class features. Personally, I'm not as completely allergic to ability draining effects as 4E was, but I think there's good reason 5E uses it very sparingly.

 

[TheCosmicKid]

This, exactly. Make it last until the next time the PC levels up, and it'll sting a lot worse. Or require some kind of quest or special resource to remove it. (Do make sure to adjust the spells that restore max hit points, though.)

I wouldn't use the next time the PC levels up. That seems like an arbitrary milestone without much in the way of in-game reality. If you want the effect to last a long time, make it a month or a year. Or, as you say, the matter of a quest.

 

[CapnZapp]

The problem is getting it back on the long rest. Make the recovery harder and the fear will follow.

This.


Also note how lowering your max hp can re-expose you to the dangers of being instakilled (instant death from a single blow dealing massive damage).

 

[Greenstone.Walker]

XP loss sucks.

You've spent a lot of time and effort gaining that XP. Losing it is going backwards, which is horrible. It sucks to look at your character and go, "I have 12500 XP, which is exactly how much I had eight sessions ago."

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

You've spent a lot of time and effort gaining that XP. Losing it is going backwards, which is horrible. It sucks to look at your character and go, "I have 12500 XP, which is exactly how much I had eight sessions ago."

FWIW, under the "1 max HP restored costs 100 XP" rule, I think I've only seen one PC come out of a fight with negative XP earned in that fight, and that was partly because he was letting the Vampire Spawn munch on him fairly freely due to his trollish regeneration. (Long story there involving ancient xixchil bioscience.) Remember that a Vampire Spawn is worth 1800 XP, and only drains 7 HP of max HP per bite attack, so it takes something like six rounds of biting (depending on AC) to drain 18 of max HP.

Obviously a wraith would be much worse. (Potentially 21 max HP drained per hit, instead of 7, although there is a Con save to avoid.) Chasme is even worse.

Anyway, I agree with the point that XP drain should not be so large as to kill multiple sessions' worth of progression. It is better if only (approximately) the current session's worth of XP is at risk. Maybe 2x that at most, but definitely not 8x or 10x.

 

[Ancalagon]

FWIW, under the "1 max HP restored costs 100 XP" rule, I think I've only seen one PC come out of a fight with negative XP earned in that fight, and that was partly because he was letting the Vampire Spawn munch on him fairly freely due to his trollish regeneration. (Long story there involving ancient xixchil bioscience.) Remember that a Vampire Spawn is worth 1800 XP, and only drains 7 HP of max HP per bite attack, so it takes something like six rounds of biting (depending on AC) to drain 18 of max HP.

Obviously a wraith would be much worse. (Potentially 21 max HP drained per hit, instead of 7, although there is a Con save to avoid.) Chasme is even worse.

Anyway, I agree with the point that XP drain should not be so large as to kill multiple sessions' worth of progression. It is better if only (approximately) the current session's worth of XP is at risk. Maybe 2x that at most, but definitely not 8x or 10x.

Ha! I was going to drain 50 XP/hit and my sessions (I haven't had many) have run in the 300-450 XP range/session (I don't bother calculating an exact amount). This particular undead does not do a lot of physical damage but hits easily (ignores armor) and is hard to kill (immune to all damage *save* magical weapons, the characters have to be clever to destroy it). However it is confined to a space (a walled off garden) so the PCs can, should they wish, avoid it entirely or escape fairly easily. It can also be turned.

Maybe 50 XP isn't enough?

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Ha! I was going to drain 50 XP/hit and my sessions (I haven't had many) have run in the 300-450 XP range/session (I don't bother calculating an exact amount). This particular undead does not do a lot of physical damage but hits easily (ignores armor) and is hard to kill (immune to all damage *save* magical weapons, the characters have to be clever to destroy it). However it is confined to a space (a walled off garden) so the PCs can, should they wish, avoid it entirely or escape fairly easily. It can also be turned.

Maybe 50 XP isn't enough?

Given the other constraints you described (esp. nigh-invulnerability), and the fact that PCs are apparently still at low level (4th-ish maybe?) based on the XP totals you mention, I'd say you might as well go with your original intuition for now. 50 XP/hit it is.

 

[Caliban]

Have them gain a level of exhaustion whenever the Max HP reduction equals or exceeds one of their Hit Dice. (i.e. a barb gains a level of exhaustion when their max HP is reduced by 12, for a fighter it's a 10 hit point reduction, a rogue 8, etc.).

Additional levels of exhaustion are gained every time another HD worth of Max HP are lost. (And remember - 6 levels of exhaustion kills you outright.)


A long rest restores one Hit Die of Max HP and removes one level of Exhaustion.

 

[Caliban]

Maybe 50 XP isn't enough?

I think any amount of XP loss is unnecessary and makes zero sense. It never did. Does each hit make them temporarily stupid and unable to learn? Is it draining memories and training?

None of that would be "life drain". XP loss for playing the game (you know, doing the very thing that is supposed to earn you XP) is just a very poorly thought out mechanic, and very meta. Which is probably why they dropped it.

 

[Uchawi]

You could make a flat -1 to all dice rolls or +1 to spell saves (if a caster is drained) per "level" lost or for every 2 "levels" lost, etc. To recover you can remove a -1 penalty per level the character gains, or when a month or more time goes by, and by restoration spell, etc. That way there are options that player/character can discover.