D&D 3E/3.5 Level Equivalents for 3.5 Core Classes

[Hassassin]

Since everyone seems to have their own idea of exactly how much better spellcaster are, I'd like to compile some sort of average for what would be the level equivalents of various core classes.

I'm interested in balancing 3.5 core only - PHB and DMG. Assume WBL and that no other classes, equipment or spells exist. I'm especially concerned with Cleric, Fighter, Rogue and Wizard, but ideas on other base classes and NPC classes are also very welcome.

Ideally, I'd like people to submit a level chart where each level of fighter is compared with the other classes. Something like (not really meant to be representative):

Fighter 1, Cleric 1, Rogue 1, Wizard 1
Fighter 2, Cleric 1, Rogue 2, Wizard 1
Fighter 3, Cleric 2, Rogue 3, Wizard 2
...

Or maybe just a couple of reference points at different levels, like Ftr15 = Clr12 or whatever.

Commentary and rationale is of course useful as well.

Edit: In case it matters, assume humans with "elite array" ability scores for PC classes and "nonelite array" for NPC classes.

 

[Empirate]

Level-appropriate gear? Level-appropriate encounters (for the party's highest-level member, lowest-level member, arithmetic mean, median...)? What kind of campaign are we looking at (is item crafting an option, is travel time an issue, intrigue-focused, combat-focused...)? Etc.

There's really too many variables to do what you ask in any meaningful way. There's not really a specific level L(f) where the Fighter can be said to be equally powerful as a Wizard at another specific level L(w), without delving deeply into the details of the situation both find themselves in.

Also, it's not all about sheer power (how is that measured, btw?), it's also about versatility. From the mid levels on, there are very few things a full caster cannot hope to tackle in some way, while there will always be lots of things a noncaster cannot ever hope to accomplish even at the highest levels of the game.

 

[Hassassin]

Level-appropriate gear? Level-appropriate encounters (for the party's highest-level member, lowest-level member, arithmetic mean, median...)? What kind of campaign are we looking at (is item crafting an option, is travel time an issue, intrigue-focused, combat-focused...)? Etc.

There's really too many variables to do what you ask in any meaningful way. There's not really a specific level L(f) where the Fighter can be said to be equally powerful as a Wizard at another specific level L(w), without delving deeply into the details of the situation both find themselves in.

As I mentioned, assume Wealth By Level for gear. (I.e. a third level fighter with third level gear, compared to second level wizard with second level gear, for example.) I'm looking more of an average than against a specific encounter, but I suppose it could be reduced to combat only if other skills make things too complicated.

Ok, would evaluating combat performance in a range of encounters within a few steps of party level be feasible?

Also, it's not all about sheer power (how is that measured, btw?), it's also about versatility. From the mid levels on, there are very few things a full caster cannot hope to tackle in some way, while there will always be lots of things a noncaster cannot ever hope to accomplish even at the highest levels of the game.

I don't really care about that. I'm not considering one-man parties, so no one has to be good at everything.

 

[RUMBLETiGER]

... See, it comes to the versitility of each class.

Fighter can deal damage.

Cleric can deal damage, heal party members, protect party members, buff party members...

Wizard can deal damage, protect party members, buff party members, alter reality...

At what level can a Fighter Cure party members or alter reality?

 

[Hassassin]

Ok, I probably didn't state the question very well.

Suppose you have a 5th level party with Cleric, Fighter, Rogue, Wizard. If I add another 5th level Fighter to the party, the party's average combat capability will improve. Would adding a 5th level Cleric be about as beneficial? How about a 4th or 3rd level Cleric? If the contribution of a 4th level cleric would be closest, then I'd say Ftr5 and Clr4 are about equivalent in this sense.

I'm trying to look at a very narrow definition of equivalency here, my OP just wasn't clear on this.

 

[RUMBLETiGER]

Ok, I probably didn't state the question very well.

Suppose you have a 5th level party with Cleric, Fighter, Rogue, Wizard. If I add another 5th level Fighter to the party, the party's average combat capability will improve. Would adding a 5th level Cleric be about as beneficial? How about a 4th or 3rd level Cleric? If the contribution of a 4th level cleric would be closest, then I'd say Ftr5 and Clr4 are about equivalent in this sense.

I'm trying to look at a very narrow definition of equivalency here, my OP just wasn't clear on this.

Ah... gotcha.

It depends on what level you set. For example, a Level 1 Wizard is lame, squishy, and to be pitied. At level 1, I'd hide behind the Fighter. At level 10, I'd hide behind the Wizard. (Since I'm just a level 1 commoner, after all.)

Spellcasters get exponentially more powerful as they advance to another spell level.

A Fighter at level 5 has a BAB of 5 and 5 Feats. A Cleric at level 5 has a BAB of 3, 2 feats, Divine Favor, Bulls Strength, Magic Circle Against Evil, and can toss Cure Serious Wounds. Going into combat, if the Cleric can buff up beforehand, it's a better combatant. If the Cleric is surprised and needs to take a few rounds to buff, the Fighter has whacked a few times already and is getting ready to mop up.

Put them at level 10, the Cleric casts Plane Shift or Slay Enemy on an opponent while the Fighter cries about how the monster isn't there anymore to hit.

 

[cjosephs1s]

Ah... gotcha.

It depends on what level you set. For example, a Level 1 Wizard is lame, squishy, and to be pitied. At level 1, I'd hide behind the Fighter. At level 10, I'd hide behind the Wizard. (Since I'm just a level 1 commoner, after all.)

Spellcasters get exponentially more powerful as they advance to another spell level.

A Fighter at level 5 has a BAB of 5 and 5 Feats. A Cleric at level 5 has a BAB of 3, 2 feats, Divine Favor, Bulls Strength, Magic Circle Against Evil, and can toss Cure Serious Wounds. Going into combat, if the Cleric can buff up beforehand, it's a better combatant. If the Cleric is surprised and needs to take a few rounds to buff, the Fighter has whacked a few times already and is getting ready to mop up.

Put them at level 10, the Cleric casts Plane Shift or Slay Enemy on an opponent while the Fighter cries about how the monster isn't there anymore to hit.

But at any level the Cleric, Wizard, and Rogue are happy to have the fighter along in case that monster makes the save or doesn't die right off the bat Everyone loves a good meat shield!

 

[RUMBLETiGER]

But at any level the Cleric, Wizard, and Rogue are happy to have the fighter along in case that monster makes the save or doesn't die right off the bat Everyone loves a good meat shield!

Depends on what sorts of buffs are in place.

 

[kitcik]

Depends on what sorts of buffs are in place.

Agreed 100%, but I will say a meat shield is always more appreciated than a mosquito (someone who is hard to damage, but flits around adding almost nothing of use).

 

[RUMBLETiGER]

Agreed 100%, but I will say a meat shield is always more appreciated than a mosquito (someone who is hard to damage, but flits around adding almost nothing of use).

Agreed.

If the party has a Fighter, a Rogue, a Cleric and a Wizard, and you asked me which I'd like as a fifth character from core, I'd pick Druid. If no Druid, i'd pick Cleric or Wizard.