Level Independent XP Awards

[Thanee]

The CR is from UK's revision. A close approximation is to multiply core rules CRs by 1.5, or x2 for dragons.

Hummm... isn't that what I was saying (i.e. it makes challenges easier, since CR is given a higher value)?

CR 10 turns out to be EL 14 (as given by the chart). A CR 11 is also EL 14, so you might want to give the party a mixture of CR 10 and CR 11 encounters. That's the easy way of looking at it.

I guess I basically don't understand why it is necessary to calculate the CR of a single creature into an EL that is not equal to the CR.

I like intuitive numerology.

The great thing about UK's system is you can calculate when an encounter is too hard for a party.

Yeah, altho it still only gives guidelines, because sometimes a party is just not equipped to handle something, regardless of CR (i.e. a flying range attacking opponent vs. a party of melee specialists (extreme example, just to illustrate)).

Bye
Thanee

 

[Cheiromancer]

I guess I basically don't understand why it is necessary to calculate the CR of a single creature into an EL that is not equal to the CR.

I like intuitive numerology.

Post 9 omits the whole business with the EL. I think it is much simpler and more intuitive. I hope you like it better.

 

[Cheiromancer]

Hey Cheiromancer mate!

Sorry for the delay, the boards wouldn't let me in last night.

Anyway, very interesting ideas. I am wondering how much we can boil down the bulk of the rules to simplify anything further.

Yeah. The boards were very tedious. Hopefully the new server will be available soon!


Anyways, I am still tinkering...The close fit between the xp chart and the suggested PC wealth started me wondering- why not make the xp required to get to a new level be (level x level x level) x 100? Ignore level 1 (or let the first 100 xp be an "apprentice level"), and for levels 2 or higher round up to the nearest 1000: using this method you get 1000 xp to get to level two (800 rounded up), 3000 xp to get to level three (2700 rounded up), and so on; it agrees with my previous chart for a few levels, then diverges a bit later on.

At level 10 the character will have 100,000 xp, and will need 34,000 xp to get to the next level. He'll need 16.2 encounters of CR 11 to advance, or 14.6 CR 12 encounters. But what CR is a 10th level character anyway? The standard array is a +1 CR, but isn't it likely that a 10th level character has stats a little better than that? Enough that he is really a CR 12? If not, how about the +1.15 CR that the average level of class adds; after 10 levels he is 1.5 CR ahead, and so is "really" a CR 12.5. A fair challenge for a party of four CR 12.5 characters is a CR 12.5 monster, and just a little under 13 such encounters is required.

But suppose you use the silver rule *and* keep the standard array. Then higher level characters will level a little more slowly; 10th or higher level characters need 16 moderate encounters instead of 13. That's still very fair, I think. And 16 is a nicer number than 13.333... anyways.

So I propose that a very reasonable level/xp chart would be the following:

[color=green]Level      Required XP[/color]
1	0
2	1,000
3	3,000
4	7,000
5	13,000
6	22,000
7	35,000
8	52,000
9	73,000
10	100,000
11	134,000
12	173,000
13	220,000
14	275,000
15	338,000
16	410,000
17	492,000
18	584,000
19	686,000
20	800,000
21	927,000
22	1,065,000
23	1,217,000
24	1,383,000
25	1,563,000
26	1,758,000
27	1,969,000
28	2,196,000
29	2,439,000
30	2,700,000
31	2,980,000
32	3,277,000
33	3,594,000
34	3,931,000
35	4,288,000
36	4,666,000
37	5,066,000
38	5,488,000
39	5,932,000
40	6,400,000
41	6,893,000
42	7,409,000
43	7,951,000
44	8,519,000
45	9,113,000
46	9,734,000
47	10,383,000
48	11,060,000
49	11,765,000
50	12,500,000
51	13,266,000
52	14,061,000
53	14,888,000
54	15,747,000
55	16,638,000
56	17,562,000
57	18,520,000
58	19,512,000
59	20,538,000
60	21,600,000
61	22,699,000
62	23,833,000
63	25,005,000
64	26,215,000
65	27,463,000
66	28,750,000
67	30,077,000
68	31,444,000
69	32,851,000
70	34,300,000
71	35,792,000
72	37,325,000
73	38,902,000
74	40,523,000
75	42,188,000
76	43,898,000
77	45,654,000
78	47,456,000
79	49,304,000
80	51,200,000
81	53,145,000
82	55,137,000
83	57,179,000
84	59,271,000
85	61,413,000
86	63,606,000
87	65,851,000
88	68,148,000
89	70,497,000
90	72,900,000
91	75,358,000
92	77,869,000
93	80,436,000
94	83,059,000
95	85,738,000
96	88,474,000
97	91,268,000
98	94,120,000
99	97,030,000
100	100,000,000

I hardly need to provide such a big chart; anyone with a pocket calculator can calculate a cube, multiply by 100, and round up to the nearest 1000. All else being equal, ease of calculation is a virtue.

Common situations (PCs have higher than average ability scores or treasure, the DM does not apply the silver rule, or prefers a slightly slower than average advancement) will make this chart provide a better fit than the one I posted in posts 2 and 9. It also yields a 1:1 relationship between gp and xp. Both of these are points in favor of the revision.

The numbers are large, though; and that is a point in favor of the core rules xp chart. But the core rules xp chart requires something like the EL table to implement- and it is highly non-intuitive. (See Thanee's post, above).

Now the question is if there is still a role for EL? I think that everything necessary can be done using CR. A 10th level party will get a fair challenge out of a CR 10 or CR 12 monster. A CR 5 or 6 monster will be very easy, and a CR 20-24 will be quite tough. Doubling or halving the CR is equivalent to adding or subtracting 4 to the EL; most encounters would be in that range of +/- 4 EL.

A +4 EL encounter will provide the characters with 1/4 the experience needed to advance a level. It will also almost kill them (100% use of resources to defeat a +4 EL encounter). Since (N+1)^3 - N^3 is (3N^2 + 3N + 1), you can roughly estimate that (level x level) x 100 xp is the maximum that should be awarded to a character in one encounter. An encounter worht more xp than that will likely kill the character. That's a fairly easy number to calculate, and it should be easy to design encounters based on particular fraction of that amount.

Anyways, I hope the boards are faster tonight, and you get a chance to look at this more thoroughly. Unless I've made some stupid mistake (known to happen!), I think this can provide a very smooth, robust implementation of your revised rules for determining CR.

 

[Ssyleia]

Sorry to say this, but the 3e XP system doen't work...

To make interresting fights you don't necessarily have to place the foes within an EL range appropriate with the party. A bunch of kobolds familiar with the terrain can beat the hell out of a medium high level PC party using assymetric warfare...

I prefer - instead of painstakingly calculating xp for level and monsters defeated - to calculate xp based on how far a player contributed to advance the storyline...

There is a base party xp progression equal to 2 8 hour sessions of game attendance = 1 level to which the "story advancement" xp are added. Also characters receive xp for really really great role playing - for example when they knowingly do something stupid because their from their character's perspective it seems rational...

 

[Prothall]

This is interesting, but seems a halfway step between just doing something on the order of what I do. I started using a chart that gave XP based on party/character level and the difficulty of the encounter, which I understand was based off the Star Wars RPG (though I've never seen that). When you break the chart down, it gave 100*level XP for an easy encounter, 300*level for an average one, and 400*level for a terribly hard one. That tends to cause advancement to be a bit fast if you stick with the old values, though, so I just lowered the awards by about a half. It means that when the players ask for their XP I just tell them to multiply so many hundreds by their level. Quite convenient, really.

 

[Cheiromancer]

Prothall,

Since in core rules a character requires 1000*level XP to advance, your rule (50*level XP for an easy encounter, 150*level XP for an average one, 200*level XP for a terribly hard one) is equivalent to 20 easy encounters to a level, 6.7 average encounters, or 5 terribly hard ones. Isn't that still a bit too fast?

 

[Prothall]

meh. Thanks for calling attention to that... I haven't noticed it because the players tend to make most things easier than they should be. I'll slash them yet again, though.

 

[Anubis]

Hmmm . . . I'm a math expert, yet nothing here makes any sense to me. It doesn't seem user-friendly in the least, is way too far a deviation from the core rules, and doesn't seem to add up, all while changing the core rules even with that wild XP table that seems to have no basis on anything except arbitrary numbers. (13,000 XP for Level 5? Why?)

 

[Cheiromancer]

Hi Anubis!

I have been presenting this on the v4: Challenging Challenge Ratings thread here:

http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=66470

Post 680 and following. I hope the explanation there makes more sense.

I apologize in advance that I have incorporated Upper Krust's notion that ability scores need to be factored in to CR. IIRC, you had some reservations about that.

[edit]With a few modifications (mostly based on how to round off the numbers), the system is as follows:

The XP awarded for an encounter is equal to 75*CR^2.

The XP required for a level of experience is 100*level^3.

That's user friendly, is it not? I give examples in the other thread to show how it "adds up."

It is a deviation from the core rules, but one pioneered by Unearthed Arcana and their fixed XP awards. However, I think this one handles high level play better.[/edit]

 

[Anubis]

Unearthed Arcana? No wonder I have no idea where you're coming from. That's one book I haven't invested in. I just go by the core rules for the XP needed to gain levels.

I won't be able to comment any further unless someone can detail this thing in Unearthed Arcana for me, as I have no knowledge of the book. I certainly have reservations about moving away from the core rules on one of the core ideas of the system. CR/EL is one thing, but the XP tables is another creature altogether . . .