Level Independent XP Awards

[Anubis]

To explain my position further, each of these changes moves us further and further away from the core system, something I am entirely against. I've been thinking of a way to make the new CR numbers work with the current system. On that note, I think I finally found the proper way!

Okay, I thought about it long and hard and hurt myself doing so, but the numbers finally came to me. The biggest problem I encountered was that if you were a higher level within the same EL, you gained more XP for the same encounter than someone lower level than you. To show what I mean:

(All my examples will be done using a four-person party.) Level 8 (EL 13) v. EL 13 was an even encounter and gave 300*8/4 XP or 600. Level 9 (EL 13) v. EL 13 was the same encounter with the party a little stronger, yet it now gave 300*9/4 XP, or 675. This is obviously wrong, as XP for any given encounter should always go down as you gain levels, not up.

This means that the EL part of the system doesn't work for XP. Unfortunately, this makes determining challenges tricky as CR is the only thing that can be used. Somehow, this formula is to blame:

CR*2 = EL+4

So I broke that down. The EL part had to go, but the XP gains at each increment had to stay. Here is how I went:

CR*2 = EL+4 = XP*4

I then exanded it out and got the following:

CR*4 = EL+8 = XP*16

The additions to EL didn't correspond directly to the XP increases, but the CR multiplier did! I got the following from the previous two formulas:

IF CR*2 = XP*4
AND CR*4 = XP*16
THEN CR*X = XP*(X^2)

The answer was right in there. If everything was based on a relative CR multiplier, then that would mean the proper way to deduce different XP within the same EL properly while keep all the rest working well would have to be based on that calculation. That brought me, finally, to this:

XP = [(CR/LV)^2]*LV*300/#Members

The reasoning is that 300, of course, is the base XP for a standard encounter as it takes exactly 13-1/3 encounters of the same CR to gain a level for a party of four, meaning:

13-1/3 * 300 = 4000 = 1000 * 4

So with 300 as the base and level being the multiplier, all as per the core rules, that means the difference between CR and LV (LV, of course, being character level)is what determined the relative XP. To determine the amount of XP for the various CRs inside a particular EL, you simply used the fractional multiplier from the formula. This works at all levels, as I will demonstrate. Again, although this works with any size party, I will use a party of four to demonstrate:

Level 1 v. CR 1 = XP = [(1/1)^2]*1*300/4 = 75 ... 13-1/3 * 75 = 1000
Level 9 v. CR 9 = XP = [(9/9)^2]*9*300/4 = 675 ... 13-1/3 * 675 = 9000

Level 8 v. CR 9 = XP = [(9/8)^2]*9*300/4 = 854 ... 13-1/3 * 675 = 9000
Level 18 v. CR 9 = XP = [(9/18)^2]*18*300/4 = 337 ... 26-2/3 * 337 = 9000

In other words, this exactly follows the original formula AND actually puts a difference based on level and CR as it should be!

 

[Cheiromancer]

There is an error in your example:

Level 8 v. CR 9 = XP = [(9/8)^2]*9*300/4 = 854 ...

That 9 should be an 8, and the answer will therefore be 759.375. Multiplied by 13-1/3 you get 10125.

Other than that...Very nice! I might suggest a different formulation of your basic equation. Start with

XP = [(CR/LV)^2]*LV*300/#Members

And then cancel/rearrange the LVs:

XP = (CR^2)*300/(LV*#Members)

For a party of four, this is exactly 1/LV times the XP awards in my fixed XP scheme.

I would suggest identifying a quantity for a monster called the "PreXP" or just PXP, defined as

PXP = (CR^2)*300

When the monster is defeated, divide by the total level of the party (i.e. LV*#Members). That's the total XP the monster is worth for each party member.

 

[PugioilAudacio]

While I haven't taken time to look at these numbers yet, it seems to me that the easiest sytem is to have a fixed EL for every encounter. For example, 4 level 5 PC's against 4 gnolls get a total of 1,000 xp. Four level 10 PC's against 4 gnolls also get 1,000 xp. The balance comes in how much xp is needed to gain a level. For the level 5's, it's a lot of xp, for the 10's, it's nothing.

* All numbers used were arbitrary, to illustrate a point.

 

[Anubis]

PugioilAudacio, the reason I've been working on this new proposal for XP is because set EL encounters have too many problems. The fact is that, as you gain levels, any particular encounter should yield less XP. The reason for this is because if you are at a lower level, the system is designed to give you more XP so you can "catch up". This is also more realistic, as less experienced people have more to learn from any given encounter. (To use a real life encounter, who do you think would gain more from a wrestling match: a 20 year veteran or a green rookie? The rookie, of course!) Basically, whatever system is finally used must incorporate that fact and must yield less and less XP for the same encounter as you gain levels or else the system breaks down.

I will concede that you are right about it being the easiest system, but the loss of accuracy is far too great to be ignored in this case. Basically, if the numbers came out in an acceptable way, I'd say "go for it", but ever since I discovered this problem in my last gaming session, it's been driving me nuts because it only makes the more experienced people widen the gap, something that makes creating items all the more costly for no real reason.

I just can't believe it took this freaking long to realize there was a problem like this to begin with . . .

 

[Anubis]

Sorry for waiting so long to post this one, but after the first post, I couldn't get to the pages anymore. Stupid server. Anyway . . .

Cheiromancer, what can I say? You are a ing GENIUS! (Pardon my French, but I needed the emphasis.) I dunno how you managed to cram my formula down like that, but you supplied the much-needed simplicity! I was cramming trying to figure out a way to knock it down to two numbers, one for the player and one for the monster, but I just couldn't figure it out. Great job!

Anyway, yeah, it seems as though this is the way. Monsters have a CR and a "base XP" for XP purposes, and EL stays in for DM reference for guaging challenges and placing treasure. Players, meanwhile, get a "power factor" that equals their level multiplied by the number of party members. Add up all base XP, then divide by each power factor in turn for total XP gained!

WONDERFUL!

I hope UK sees this so he can finally see how to fix that problem in his system. I honestly think this is the absolute perfect way to both use the new CRs AND stick to the core rules for the XP tables, which was my goal. Great job!

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey all!

WONDERFUL!

I hope UK sees this so he can finally see how to fix that problem in his system. I honestly think this is the absolute perfect way to both use the new CRs AND stick to the core rules for the XP tables, which was my goal. Great job!

Glad to see your all having a good time (remember my blood pressure Anubis mate).

I shall endeavour to get back into the swing of things over the next few days.

Maybe I'll have v6 on the website....who knows.

 

[Anubis]

I just needed to report there is one more thing needed for this formula to work. Taking just the CR doesn't work if CR<1, so as always the weaklings need a mod. Simply use EL instead of (CR^2).

Simple one here, of course.

IF CR<1
THEN Substitute EL in place of (CR^2)

So, for instance, if if the enemies are CR -2, instead of using (CR^2)*300, you instead use (EL)*300. In this case, since CR -2 is EL 1/8 (.125), you would use (.125)*300, giving you a base XP of 37. This, of course, means you'll be getting far less XP for those creatures with a lower CR, but then again, those things are all pretty pathetic anyway, so it still works.

 

[Cheiromancer]

Anubis,

I missed your last response and forgot all about this issue. I was just looking at it this morning. And I realize that I didn't really understand your suggestion in your post from May 05.

I think the power factor idea is a good one. If I understand it correctly, each creature would be worth a certain amount of Raw XP, according to the formula Raw XP = (CR^2)*300, and this raw XP would be divided evenly between players. Each player then divides by their ECL (level plus racial hit dice plus LA) to calculate the XP they get from the encounter. This lets lower level characters "catch up" to higher level creatures.

With regard to your second point (from May 08), I don't think I've ever seen a creature listed with a negative CR- usually they are fractional. I think the idea is that eight 1/8 CR creatures is a CR 1 encounter. That would have a raw XP value of 300, so divide by the number of critters to get the raw XP value of each one; in this case, 37 xp.

Now I want to see if the power level thingie works. I'll use the example from page 185 of Grim Tales, which uses UK's system:

Suppose a party of three characters, one 20th level Smart hero,one 20th level Fast hero, one 18th level Strong hero, and one 15th level (with a +3 LA) Dedicated hero (a werewolf) confront a Vrock demon (CR 13).

In UK's system (and in Grim Tales) you take the total CR of the party (76), determine (table 14-1) that this is EL 25, subtract 4 for their being 4 members (table 14-2), so EL 21. A CR 13 encounter is EL 15 (table 14-1), so the difference is -6. Table 14-4 gives such an encounter as being worth 37.5 xp per level. So 750 xp for the 20th characters, 675 for the 18th level, and 562 xp for the 15th level werewolf (xp is per hit dice, not ECL). Total xp is 2737.

In the system I propose here (raw xp= (CR^2)*300, divide evenly, then divide by character level) the Vrock is worth 50,700 raw XP. That's 12,675 raw XP per character. The 20th level characters get 1/20 the raw XP, or 633 XP each. The 18th level characters get 1/18 this raw amount, or 704 XP each. Total XP awarded is 2674.

The two systems give a similar amount of XP, but UK/GT doesn't allow low level characters to catch up with high level characters. In this system lower level characters get more XP. In fact, they can get ridiculous amounts of xp. A 20th level character accompanied by 3 first level characters would still get 633 xp, but his companions would get 12,675 xp each; they convert raw xp to xp on a 1-1 ratio. They automatically go up at least one level.

Now is this a bug, or a feature? Can you really advance low level characters merely by slaying a vrock in their presence? If not, how could you fix it?

BTW, I misstated the rule about xp for characters with a LA- Grim Tales says that xp is awarded per character level (I think this is unchanged from UK's v5) But what if you had a monstrous character who had racial hit dice and a LA, but no character levels? No xp? I bet the author of Grim Tales (Wulf Ratbane) meant hit dice, not character levels.

[edit] The original method would award (50,700/76)=667 xp per person, or 2668 total. You take the raw xp total of (13^2)*300 and divide by the total party level of 20+20+18+18=76. That's what each person gets. See the following post for more examples.[/edit]

 

[Cheiromancer]

Consideration of this extreme example makes me want to go back to my original method.

Although... a party consisting of a 20th level character and two first level characters is pretty weird. Even UK's system doesn't handle it. The EL of the 20th level character goes down (from 18 to 15) when he gets 2 first level sidekicks! Maybe a 20th level archmage and two 10th level assistants would be more reasonable.

With the proposed method we divide the raw xp evenly between the characters, and for each character divide the result by that character's level; the result is the xp actually awarded to that character.

Say the group consisting of the archmage and two assistants fight a vrock with a raw xp value of 50,700. In the proposed method that's 16,900 raw xp for each character, which is then divided by character level- this results in 845 xp for the archwizard, and 1,690 per assistant. 4,225 xp total.

Here's a original method:

Divide the raw xp by total levels, and award that amount to each character. So the vrock would be worth 50,700/40 = 1267 xp for each member of a 3 person group. 3801 xp total. Which is a lot better than 633 xp for a 20th level character and 12,675 xp per first level sidekick.

In UK's system the party gets 75 xp/level (I'll omit the details), so 1500 xp for the archmage, and 750 xp per assistant. 3000 xp total.

What happens if the archmage takes out the vrock by himself? In method 2 (the proposed method) he gets all 50,700 raw xp himself, which converts to 2535 xp. In method 1 (the original suggestion) the total is the same- 50,700 divided by "total party level" of 20, awarded to "each" character. So 2535. In UK's system he gets 100 xp/level or 2000 xp.

Suppose the two assistants slew the vrock? In method 2 they split raw xp and get 25,350 raw xp each, which reduces to 2,535 xp. In method 1 they get the same result; the 50700 raw xp is divided by 20 (total party level) and that amount is given to each character. So 2535 each. In UK's system each gets 200 xp/level, or 2000 xp each.

I kinda think the calculations are easier for the original method. And it *does* work better for the extreme cases.

So I propose that we revert to the original rule: that for each creature a raw XP total be calculated by the formula (CR^2)*300, and that when a party defeats the challenge, divide the raw XP total by the total CR of the party, and award that amount to each character.

If anyone knows of a better way of tinkering with this system (the whole CR^2)*300 thing), I'd love to hear it!

[edit]I notice that in this post a vrock is CR 13. In Upper Krust's work it is CR 15. I suspect that all these elaborate calculations conceal the fact that there is considerable variation and estimation as to how difficult challenges actually are.[/edit]

 

[Cheiromancer]

A quick note to estimate the percentage of a groups resources an encounter should take. (Assuming that an EL-4 encounter uses 25%, an EL-2 encounter uses 50%, etc.)

Compute the power of a group by summing the square of the ECLs of the characters. A 6th level character has a power of 36, a 5th level character has a power of 25; together they have a power of 36+25=61.

Work out the power of an encounter the same way. Two CR 10 monsters have a power of 100+100 = 200.

Divide the encounter power by the party power. E.g., if the power of the encounter is half that of the party, 1/2 the party's resources should be used up. The way I have just defined EL, it is an EL-2 encounter.

Example: Two 20th level characters and two 18th level characters encounter a CR 13 monster (the "vrock" mentioned above, which is CR 15 in other sources). The party power is 400+400+324+324= 1448. The power of the monster is 169. The encounter should use up 11% of the party's resources.

Note:
EL -0 = 100% of party's resources (on average)
EL -2 = 50%
EL -4 = 25%
EL -6 = 12.5%

So this is about an EL -6 encounter.

The 20th level archmage and his two 10th level assistants encounter an identical CR 13 monster. They have a party power of 400+100+100 = 600. 169/600 = 28%, so this is an EL -4 encounter.

[edit]Sometimes people use an EL -0 encounter to mean that the party receives a fair fight- it uses 25% of its resources. That's not the definition I use here. You can add +4 to the above numbers if you like- the important thing is probably the percentage.[/edit]