Level one...hero or schlub?

[Celebrim]

Based on what evidence?

Based on the fact that the author of the script doesn't seem to believe that Biggs is just talking Luke up, and more importantly on the internal evidence of the text that Luke shortly after this statement manages to show up and handedly defeat elite Imperial Pilots attached to Lord Vadar's personal squadron and Rebel Pilots who are "too welll equipped. They are more dangerous than you realize." Various other incidents in the text point to Biggs statement as being credible - for example the fact that Luke doesn't think that hitting a two meter target is particularly difficult even though it causes the other veteren pilots to groan or that prior to this he's been blowing up Tie fighters.

Biggs himself does better than most of the rebel pilots, managing to survive most of the battle only to be taken out by Vader himself. Vader is presumably a super-heroic character, so being defeated by Vader doesn't prove that you are incompotent. In fact, in narrative terms, if it takes Vader to defeat you then you are probably pretty compotent.

Even if Luke is the best, we know absolutely nothing about his competition. It's entirely possible that "the best... in the outer rim" is like being "the best football team in Scotland" - sure, if you're stuck there then it's better to be best than nothing, but as soon as you move to a larger stage, you're liable to be shown up very badly.

Considering that we are talking about thousands or perhaps millions of star systems, it's quite possible that Bigg's boast is a boast, but it isn't based on Luke's performance an uncreditable boast.

(Indeed, it's entirely likely that the only reason Red Leader doesn't mock Biggs' assessment is that he's desperate...

Perhaps. An even more creditable reason is that he already has seen Biggs in action, and therefore finds the assessment "He's better than I am." to be very convincing.

Alternately, immediately prior to this scene, Luke is easily ambushed by Sand People and beaten unconscious. Immediately after, he gets casually tossed aside by a thug who turns out to be nothing but a mook himself.

That sure sounds like 1st level to me.

It sounds to me like a level based system is a poor way to emulate the movies. If luke has 9D piloting (star fighters), it in no way effects his ability to avoid getting beaten unconscious by Sand People with 5D in Gaffi Sticks or taken down by a thug with 5D in brawling. Nonetheless, it's clear that whatever his melee combat ability is, Luke is far from a mook and quite capable of mowing down mooks by the handful virtually from the beginning of the movie.

Again, what do you base that assessment of Han on?

Han's backstory which, while perhaps exagerrated in non-canonical sources, is nonetheless creditable as a smuggler with a galaxy wide reputation based on hints from the movie that reinforce this assessment. Obi Wan seems to believe that Han is only boasting as his own account seems to incredible to believe, but Han backs up his claims about himself from that point on.

 

[delericho]

for example the fact that Luke doesn't think that hitting a two meter target is particularly difficult even though it causes the other veteren pilots to groan

Here, Luke is in the happy position of not knowing what the hell he's talking about. His T-16 back home has a fraction of the speed of an X-Wing, he almost certainly didn't bullseye womp rats while barrelling down Beggar's Canyon at full throttle, proton torpedoes travel far slower than the blaster bolts he was using and they have a ballistic rather than line-of-sight trajectory. Oh, and womp rats tend not to fire back.

He's also wrong - that shot is impossible by mundane means. It is only through using magic (the Force) that Luke is able to achieve it.

It sounds to me like a level based system is a poor way to emulate the movies.

Not really...

If Luke has 9D piloting (star fighters), it in no way effects his ability to avoid getting beaten unconscious by Sand People with 5D in Gaffi Sticks or taken down by a thug with 5D in brawling.

And how exactly does an 18-year-old farmboy who has probably never left his home planet (he's in hiding, after all) get to have 9D in piloting (star fighters)?

Whether you use a class-based or skill-based system, Luke's GM is being incredibly generous with the rate at which he's picking up skills. At least in the d20 system, the rules allow him to throw all the skill points he got for levelling up after the Death Star into his Pilot skill.

But Luke does exhibit an increase in general competence as he goes through the movies, albeit specialising quickly towards the piloting and then 'Jedi' skills. That fits a level-based system pretty neatly, actually.

(Incidentally - yes, there are plenty of points you made that I haven't addressed. I haven't ignored them... I just don't have a good rebuttal. )

 

[El Mahdi]

I prefer to be a Hero from the get-go.

That doesn't mean I need to have world dominating abilities right out of the gate, but they need to have some formidable abilities.

But in the end, it's not what a character can do that makes them a Hero, it's what they do with their abilities that does...

 

[Tinker Gnome]

It is my view that the only way a pc can be a schlub in a dnd game is if all of their character levels were Commoner Levels... This of course makes me wonder what an epic level commoner looks like.

See any of the Farmer main characters in any Harvest Moon game.

 

[Meatboy]

For me how "heroic" first level is is entirely dependent on the campaign. If the world operates under the assumption that most npcs are low level, with most being level one and a few being a tad higher.
Then by default the heroes must be something special. They are special people taking steps into the big league. They are the ones that go out and slay the level 3 brigand leader. Why? because they are some of the few people who can. At level 3 he might not be that much of threat compared to demons or dragons but to 90% of the general population he is one bad mofo. He is not generic bandit guy. He is Theron the Crimson Fury King of Bandits! and he owns the wilds between the Ash Spire Peaks and the Low Woods and the heroes even though they are level one are the only guys around, short of an army, that can go stop him.

If on the other hand you have something like Planescape where demons, angels, demigods and the like are all interacting or even something like Forgotten realms where there is a plethora of high level characters walking around taking care of business then level one characters are just mooks who without some serious love from the DM will probably meet an untimely demise at the hands, or claws, of nearly anything that meanders around the campaign setting.

 

[Zhaleskra]

Level based games really aren't my preference, unless level is somewhat less meaningful and not a magic upgrade to everything. That said, I'm starting to think you shouldn't even be "level 1" until you've done something. My sweet spot for games, leveled or not, is "competent to efficient".

And then there are games where you can call your character a hero all you want, but until someone who isn't in your party does, as far as the rest of the world is concerned you're not.

 

[Imperialus]

Even in 1st edition or B/X D&D I'd certainly not call average 1st level characters "Schlubs". I mean think about it.

A 1st level fighter has a good chance of surviving a sword blow or arrow shot. I mean he can potentially have as many or more hitpoints than a sword can hope to deal in damage.

A 1st level wizard can shoot a freaking bolt of energy from his fingers! Or make a group of people fall into a magical slumber, or bewitch someone into being his friend.

A 1st level Cleric can restore an injured man to health in seconds.

1st level thieves... ok I'll agree they kinda suck but still, even in 1st edition a character tended to be a cut above the peasants and other ilk that they come across.

 

[Mallus]

I've begun to realize it isn't powerful or heroic characters I'm after. It's unrealistic ones. I want PC's with a fair number of options available to them, most of which are mad, brash, daring, grossly improbable in terms of successful outcomes in the real world, if not flat-out suicidal or physics-defying.

In short, I'd like my characters to resemble the people you find in adventure stories. If possible, I'd like that resemblance right from the start. I'm not getting any younger...

(I realize too, in many systems, this is synonymous with a certain level or "power", but it doesn't need to be. I'm currently playing Savage Worlds, and it seems to strike a nice balance between offering even novice characters the opportunity to pull off outrageous stunts, without making them correspondingly demi-godlike.)