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Playtest (A5E) Level Up Playtest Document #4: Druid

Welcome to the fourth Level Up playtest document. This playtest contains a candidate for the first 10 levels of game’s druid class.

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Russ Morrissey

Russ Morrissey

rules.mechanic

Craft homebrewer
The changes to wildshape are interesting. I like the idea but I'm not sold on the execution. Adding THP instead of getting access to a new set of hit points is something I hope sticks around. But I would scrap the rolling and just do THP=Druid Level. Maybe max of 10. Embraced Ferocity could double the THP and any max level of THP.

I like the minimum AC but would prefer 12+Wis mod. It's technically the same range of ACs but with the ability to start higher and hit the max sooner. Certainly more powerful but perhaps that is the tradeoff for the reduction in overall HP. I may draw up a couple stat blocks and see how they compare side by side.
I wonder if it could even be THPs of d4 x Druid Level, with no max. The creature often has higher HP than the druid and it seems a little unfair that the druid-wolf or druid-tiger is the scrawny one in the litter. With a5e having less transforms (but lasting longer), that shouldn't be OP.
 

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vincegetorix

Jewel of the North
I wonder if it could even be THPs of d4 x Druid Level, with no max. The creature often has higher HP than the druid and it seems a little unfair that the druid-wolf or druid-tiger is the scrawny one in the litter. With a5e having less transforms (but lasting longer), that shouldn't be OP.

I'd scrap the die rolling myself. In my own remake of the game, use 2x Druid level for the THP, 3x for the moon druid equivalent. Its play faster than throwing a bunch of the wort die ever on the table :p
 

NotAYakk

Legend
I agree. I actually like the ''trophy gathering'' feature, but for a rangers.

Gathering component worth would be awesome. One thing I still use in my 5e game from 4e is the generic magical components used for rituals (and other costly spells): Sacred Incense (Divine), Rare Herbs (Primal), Alchemical reagents (Arcane). So instead of a diamond worth 500 gp, the cleric spends 500 gp worth of Sacred Incense. So in A5E, the druid could have a feature where, once per long rest, he can gather 1d4 x 5 gp worth of Rare Herbs.
How about I propose a step further.

Components for spells could be in there, but a herbalism subsystem would be better, so you can imbue your harvested stuff with magical effects that others can consume.

Most potion systems in 5e have this entire "you can keep 2 of them around". We could keep that, but I think with some math you can actually dispose of it.

A party of level X characters can defeat a certain amount of CR per adventuring day; in fact, if you "add up CR" you get something that scales very similarly to the XP multipliers times the XP values of monsters.

If the effects of the herbalism ingredients scaled with the CR of the harvested ingredients and went bad relatively quickly (on the scale of days or a week or so), the amount of "active herbalism" you can have around and your income of said ingredients would become reasonably bounded without any gamist limitations.

Of course, this might be too complex. And definitely nothing you'd want to hoist on every druid. And if it has mechanical heft, it needs a decent power budget. So maybe a subclass sized thing, not an exploration feature.

Oh well.
 

BlivetWidget

Explorer
Cantrips: A large part of me thinks druids should just automatically get druidcraft for free.

Agreed, I also feel wizards should get prestidigitation for free. They're both extremely thematic spells with such a high roleplaying value and such a low adventuring value that they really shouldn't have to compete for your limited choices with cantrips like firebolt, mage hand, frostbite, etc. (Yes yes, we have all theorycrafted ways of setting the world ablaze with prestidigitation but let's be real, we mostly just use it to look cool lighting candles or disapparate our poop). Any druid without druidcraft feels silly to me, any wizard without prestidigitation feels the same.
 

Horwath

Hero
If you wanted to play around with Wildshape, you should have done something similar to Shapeshift variant druid in 3.5e from PHB2.

that was the simplest and most elegant wild shape in any edition.

so here is my try on it for 5E.

Wild shape: at-will,
Action to change form/bonus action for moon druids. Cannot cast spells in wild shape form.

1st level form; Predator; 4 legged medium size mammal or reptile, 50-200kg
strength gain +2/+4 for moon druid
movement: +10 land speed/+20 for moon druid
attacks: 1d6 bite attack/1d8 for moon druid
AC: 11+dex/12+dex for moon druids

3rd level form: aquatic, medium size fish, can breath only in water
str gain: +0/+2 for moon druid
movement: swim speed equal to land speed/+10 bonus moon druids
attack: 1d4 bite/1d6 for moon druids
AC: 10+dex/11+dex moon druids

6th level:
fly form, medium size bird
str gain: +0/+2 for moon druid
movement: fly speed equal to land speed/+10 ft for moon druid
attack: 1d4 talons/1d6 for moon druids
AC: 10+dex/11+dex for moon druids

ferocious predator form: large 4 legged mammal or reptile
str gain: +4/+8 for moon druids
movement: normal land speed/+10 ft for moon druids
attacks: bite 1d6/1d8 moon druids, claws 1d6/1d8 moon druids. Multi attack: 1 bite attack, 1 claw attack(2claws attacks at 10th level)
AC:12+dex/13+dex

10th level form
Treant form; huge plant
str gain: +4/+8 moon druids
movement: land speed -10 ft/ normal land speed for moon druids
attacks: slam 1d8/1d12 moon druids. Multi attack: 2 slam attacks
AC: 15/17 for moon druids
 

Quartz

Adventurer
I've had a quick read and this caught my eye:

or two uses of your Wild Shape feature to recover an expended spell slot of 6th level or lower

The more I think about this, the more I dislike it.

6th level spells are big guns and high level druids have many uses of Wild Shape. You're effectively giving them several extra 6th level spell slots. You might want to cap it at 5th level, not 6th; maybe even 4th level. And no more than the character's Proficiency Bonus. Compare an 11th level Druid who converts all her Wild Shape uses with an 11th level Cleric.

I would also suggest making it explicitly a Druid spell slot of 5th level or lower, to prevent multiclassing cheese. Something like, "After you cast a Druid spell of 1st to 3rd level, as a Bonus Action you may expend one use of your Wild Shape feature to recover the spell slot. After you cast a Druid spell of 4th or 5th level, as a Bonus Action you may expend two uses of your Wild Shape feature to recover the spell slot. When you use this feature you may not use it again until you have finished a Short or Long Rest." Maybe even sacrifice 3 uses for a 5th level slot.

I think Ley Line Awareness is very cool and you should expand on it. Dig out your copy of Shadow World and look up the Flows of Essence. For example, perhaps a Druid's party moves faster when travelling along a ley line. Or spells can get metamagicked or heightened when cast at the crossing of two or more ley lines.
 

vincegetorix

Jewel of the North
If you wanted to play around with Wildshape, you should have done something similar to Shapeshift variant druid in 3.5e from PHB2.

that was the simplest and most elegant wild shape in any edition.

so here is my try on it for 5E.

Wild shape: at-will,
Action to change form/bonus action for moon druids. Cannot cast spells in wild shape form.

1st level form; Predator; 4 legged medium size mammal or reptile, 50-200kg
strength gain +2/+4 for moon druid
movement: +10 land speed/+20 for moon druid
attacks: 1d6 bite attack/1d8 for moon druid
AC: 11+dex/12+dex for moon druids

3rd level form: aquatic, medium size fish, can breath only in water
str gain: +0/+2 for moon druid
movement: swim speed equal to land speed/+10 bonus moon druids
attack: 1d4 bite/1d6 for moon druids
AC: 10+dex/11+dex moon druids

6th level:
fly form, medium size bird
str gain: +0/+2 for moon druid
movement: fly speed equal to land speed/+10 ft for moon druid
attack: 1d4 talons/1d6 for moon druids
AC: 10+dex/11+dex for moon druids

ferocious predator form: large 4 legged mammal or reptile
str gain: +4/+8 for moon druids
movement: normal land speed/+10 ft for moon druids
attacks: bite 1d6/1d8 moon druids, claws 1d6/1d8 moon druids. Multi attack: 1 bite attack, 1 claw attack(2claws attacks at 10th level)
AC:12+dex/13+dex

10th level form
Treant form; huge plant
str gain: +4/+8 moon druids
movement: land speed -10 ft/ normal land speed for moon druids
attacks: slam 1d8/1d12 moon druids. Multi attack: 2 slam attacks
AC: 15/17 for moon druids

This is exactly what the 5e playtest did. You gained a few form that modified your stats, a few THP and a size change. At higher level, said forms gained different bonus.
 

If you wanted to play around with Wildshape, you should have done something similar to Shapeshift variant druid in 3.5e from PHB2.

that was the simplest and most elegant wild shape in any edition.

so here is my try on it for 5E.

The problem is, this assumes that druids only wildshape for combat purposes. In my first 5e game, the druid changed into a spider to do some scouting. In a more recent game I ran, the first time the druid wildshaped, it was into a cat so he could escape a mob. And I could easily see a druid turning into horse or something to help carry a heavy load.

So something like this would need to include options for non-combat purposes as well.
 

tetrasodium

Hero
Supporter
Yeah that sucks.

When I got to DM a Moon Druid the first time, the player was my youngest kid, probably around 6 at that time. I went to the SRD and found all the animals of the maximum CR the druid could turn into, asked the kid which ones were most cool, and printed them out on a single page (although just in case, I also printed more of them on the back of the same page). When the Druid levels up and unlocks better beasts, we print another page, so for example now we have a separate page with 5-6 good aquatic creatures. They are just extra pages along with the character sheets. We never consult books at the table.

I had Land Druids also, but for them wildshape is not really meant for combat. I wouldn't even recommend to print out stats in that case, because when you use it for exploration it's enough to know movement speeds and stealth/perception scores in almost all cases. We can check the SRD if necessary, and if the player uses a beast often, they can write a couple of numbers on their sheets.

It's a shame that the books blambers about trivialities sometimes and don't teach you how to organize yourself, then make you feel something's wrong with the game and you need to buy more to fix it. We are well organized and it IS fun.
My experience is similar where the moon druid literally just tracks hp on the printout and the every other druid pretty much uses things like "a cat", "a rat", "a $bird", arc because its probably going to be hit if anything level appropriate looks at it and is probably almost certain to do in that attack. With no meaningful skills from beasts the non-moon druid really only needs to remember that an owl has +3 stealth& cat +4 stealth
 

Horwath

Hero
The problem is, this assumes that druids only wildshape for combat purposes. In my first 5e game, the druid changed into a spider to do some scouting. In a more recent game I ran, the first time the druid wildshaped, it was into a cat so he could escape a mob. And I could easily see a druid turning into horse or something to help carry a heavy load.

So something like this would need to include options for non-combat purposes as well.
well, on 3rd level we could add small animal, and on 5th level tiny animal.
I.E.
3rd level
small size:
-2 str/ +0 str for moon druid
speed: -10 ft for land and burrow speed/+0 speed for moon druids
damage: claws 1d3/1d4 moon druids
AC: 11+dex/ 12+dex moon druids

5th level:
tiny animal:
-4 str/ -2 str for moon druid
speed: -10ft land and climb speed/ +0 speed for moon druids
damage: bite 1d2/1d3 moon druids
AC:12+dex/13+dex moon druids

str/damage/AC bonuses/speed are all lower in my suggestion for all non-moon druids so they are not that good for combat.
 

Stacie GmrGrl

Adventurer
This is the first A5E release packet that's very underwhelming and seems almost cripplingly weak done on purpose for some kind of internal balance system if perception we can't fully understand yet.

Why the limitations on Wild Shape is beyond me. If WS was a point pool system, where the character got a pool of points to spend on how they chose to WS themselves instead of relying on all the creatures in a Monster Manual that we don't have yet for A5E...

Plus super limiting what spells can be cast in any WS form seems ludicrously limiting in a game of super high fantasy super heroics is just bonkers.

And not having access to the spells so we can fully measure the full capabilities of the Druid doesn't let us get the full scope of the class as is.

I wouldn't even do a survey for this right now because of the lack of spells since this is technically a spellcasting class and it's hard to fully judge this class without the spells and it's hard for us to be fair in our judgement because of this.

Based on this class release alone the Druid looks weak and unfun and seems super limited in what it can do and I'd never play one.
 

Horwath

Hero
This is the first A5E release packet that's very underwhelming and seems almost cripplingly weak done on purpose for some kind of internal balance system if perception we can't fully understand yet.

Why the limitations on Wild Shape is beyond me. If WS was a point pool system, where the character got a pool of points to spend on how they chose to WS themselves instead of relying on all the creatures in a Monster Manual that we don't have yet for A5E...

Plus super limiting what spells can be cast in any WS form seems ludicrously limiting in a game of super high fantasy super heroics is just bonkers.

And not having access to the spells so we can fully measure the full capabilities of the Druid doesn't let us get the full scope of the class as is.

I wouldn't even do a survey for this right now because of the lack of spells since this is technically a spellcasting class and it's hard to fully judge this class without the spells and it's hard for us to be fair in our judgement because of this.

Based on this class release alone the Druid looks weak and unfun and seems super limited in what it can do and I'd never play one.
well, this is a playtest and their 1st public draft for the druid, and we expected that there could be a blunder or two on the way to the final product, and IMHO this druid draft is a little blunder.
Number one reason being wild shape,

knacks are OK, druidcraft should be bonus cantrip for all druids,

Untamed Demeanor, Druidic Lore and Ferocity or Serenity seem to have nice options for different play styles of druid.

I just wish that they get rid of the expertise dice idea and keep it to default expertise mechanics of 5E(double modifier)
 

tetrasodium

Hero
Supporter
well, this is a playtest and their 1st public draft for the druid, and we expected that there could be a blunder or two on the way to the final product, and IMHO this druid draft is a little blunder.
Number one reason being wild shape,

knacks are OK, druidcraft should be bonus cantrip for all druids,

Untamed Demeanor, Druidic Lore and Ferocity or Serenity seem to have nice options for different play styles of druid.

I just wish that they get rid of the expertise dice idea and keep it to default expertise mechanics of 5E(double modifier)
No the knacks feel really bad, take this easy example
Rogue climb related knack gives expertise on all athletics checks & a climb speed
1602955100935.png

Fighter climb related knack gives a climb speed, the option to spend exertion to reroll athletics when climbing, and you ignore nonmagical difficult terrain.
1602955165083.png

druid climb related knack gives a climb speed and an expertise die on athletics checks specifically limited to climbing(perhaps if you were using athletics rather than your climb speed to climb?) in comparison to the rogue's unrestrained athletics check expertise die, then it tops it all off with being "acclimated" to a situation likely to almost never come up in any game ever.
1602955265598.png


The others don't really feel like they hold a candle to their rogue/fighter counterpartsare generally feeling lacking. Compare te rogue's observer giving an expertise die on all perception checks & a +3 passive perception
1602957391108.png

to the druid's aerial surveyor also giving one expertise die to perception but limiting it to perception checks made from great heights or while flying without the passive perception bump making it worse in an extra way.
1602957496795.png



Eldritch survivor might actually be good depending on what the skills changes look like, but lets be honest & admit that some of that should be stuff nature should probably do by default from a druid given all the fluff & restrictions elsewhere trying to reinforce the fact that the druid is designed to interact with those things & stop the bad ones.
1602957778172.png


The expertise dice are a dramatic improvement over double proficiency, but unlike the rogue who has ability chains that can bump specific skill expertise dice the druid just has a chance at 3 to choose between a pair of potentially useful abilities or one of two others that give an expertise die on nature & animal handling respectively... Then their knacks include options that grant an expertise die on athletics checks (athletics is not even on the druid skill list!) needed to swim(lots of fish make those I bet?), an expertise die on athletics checks specifically to climb, an expertise die on whatever specifically when basically foraging for food. Part of the problem is that nature is generally a terrible skill & despite being a d8 medium armor divine caster like cleric who actually have archetypes to be a d8 heavy armor divine caster druid is still being punished for the sins of 3.5 CoDzilla* by actually being a d8 padded leather & hide divine caster & has everything under the sun (needlessly?)restricted in any way possible to make sure it doesn't get delusions of the past. without some details on the new spell list stuff or weapon & armor stuff we don't eve know how awful this is or if all of these seemingly needless restrictions are even warranted.

. * CoDzilla was the 3.5 term to summarize Cleric or Druid-(god)zilla, here's more on it
 

Arilyn

Hero
I have reservations about this druid.

Wild Shape: The hp bump is nice but I really dislike the limit on wildshapes. It vastly decreases versatility, and it's not needed, since it's already limited by CR, as well as waiting for swimming and flying.
Being able to cast a little magic is nice, though.

Druidic Secrets: Once per long rest? This is hard to explain and rather limiting.

Waste Not: Doesn't feel very druidy, and by 7th level, characters probably won't need to scavenge body parts for money.

Exploration Knacks: Not as strong as we saw with the fighter and rogue. Some are overly specific or not interesting. I'd like to see these have an overhaul.

I think the druid needs a little more polish. It's not hopeless, but feels rougher than the fighter and rogue. Druids are one of my favourite classes, but I wouldn't play this one over the regular 5e druid. It's a start, and I do understand redoing spellcasters is more challenging.
 

The Old Crow

Explorer
No the knacks feel really bad, take this easy example
Rogue climb related knack gives expertise on all athletics checks & a climb speed
View attachment 127568
Fighter climb related knack gives a climb speed, the option to spend exertion to reroll athletics when climbing, and you ignore nonmagical difficult terrain.
View attachment 127569
druid climb related knack gives a climb speed and an expertise die on athletics checks specifically limited to climbing(perhaps if you were using athletics rather than your climb speed to climb?) in comparison to the rogue's unrestrained athletics check expertise die, then it tops it all off with being "acclimated" to a situation likely to almost never come up in any game ever.
View attachment 127570

The others don't really feel like they hold a candle to their rogue/fighter counterpartsare generally feeling lacking. Compare te rogue's observer giving an expertise die on all perception checks & a +3 passive perception
View attachment 127571
to the druid's aerial surveyor also giving one expertise die to perception but limiting it to perception checks made from great heights or while flying without the passive perception bump making it worse in an extra way.
View attachment 127572


Eldritch survivor might actually be good depending on what the skills changes look like, but lets be honest & admit that some of that should be stuff nature should probably do by default from a druid given all the fluff & restrictions elsewhere trying to reinforce the fact that the druid is designed to interact with those things & stop the bad ones.
View attachment 127573

The expertise dice are a dramatic improvement over double proficiency, but unlike the rogue who has ability chains that can bump specific skill expertise dice the druid just has a chance at 3 to choose between a pair of potentially useful abilities or one of two others that give an expertise die on nature & animal handling respectively... Then their knacks include options that grant an expertise die on athletics checks (athletics is not even on the druid skill list!) needed to swim(lots of fish make those I bet?), an expertise die on athletics checks specifically to climb, an expertise die on whatever specifically when basically foraging for food. Part of the problem is that nature is generally a terrible skill & despite being a d8 medium armor divine caster like cleric who actually have archetypes to be a d8 heavy armor divine caster druid is still being punished for the sins of 3.5 CoDzilla* by actually being a d8 padded leather & hide divine caster & has everything under the sun (needlessly?)restricted in any way possible to make sure it doesn't get delusions of the past. without some details on the new spell list stuff or weapon & armor stuff we don't eve know how awful this is or if all of these seemingly needless restrictions are even warranted.

. * CoDzilla was the 3.5 term to summarize Cleric or Druid-(god)zilla, here's more on it

I feel like the Fighter knacks are worse, because the Fighter has to use an exertion die to get one reroll, while a Druid can reroll for free as often as they need.
 

well, on 3rd level we could add small animal, and on 5th level tiny animal.
I.E.
3rd level
small size:
-2 str/ +0 str for moon druid
speed: -10 ft for land and burrow speed/+0 speed for moon druids
damage: claws 1d3/1d4 moon druids
AC: 11+dex/ 12+dex moon druids

5th level:
tiny animal:
-4 str/ -2 str for moon druid
speed: -10ft land and climb speed/ +0 speed for moon druids
damage: bite 1d2/1d3 moon druids
AC:12+dex/13+dex moon druids

str/damage/AC bonuses/speed are all lower in my suggestion for all non-moon druids so they are not that good for combat.

Seems like those templates could both be available at 2nd level, since they're weak enough. Also, in 5e, templates don't seem to require math. Take a look at lycanthropes, where your Strength isn't increased by +4 or whatever; your Strength becomes 19. So what I'd do is something like:

Scampering Beast: You turn into a cat, squirrel, rabbit, chevrotain, badger, spider, fox, velociraptor compsognathus, or other small, relatively harmless beast. Your Strength becomes 6. Your Dexterity becomes 16, unless it was already higher. You become Tiny or Small (your choice). You have one attack, a bite or claw that inflicts 1 point of either piercing or slashing damage (your choice). Pick # of the following traits:
  • Climb speed of 30
  • Burrow speed of 10
  • Super-Scamper: you can take the Dash action as a bonus action.
  • Undergrowth Camouflage: you have advantage on Dexterity (Stealth) checks when you're not moving.
  • Prey's Alertness: you have advantage on Wisdom (Perception) checks.
  • Strong for your Size: Your bite or claw inflicts 5 (1d4+3) piercing or slashing damage.
At Higher Levels: When you reach 4th level and can change into a form that can swim, you can also become an otter, beaver, fish, or similar animal using this template.

Ungulate: You turn into a goat, riding horse, deer, cow, boar, hadrosaur, or other big herbivore (it doesn't actually have to be an ungulate). Your Strength becomes 17, unless it was already higher. Your walking speed increases by 20 feet, and you lose any other type of speeds. You become Medium or Large (your choice). You have one attack, a hoof attack that inflicts 8 (2d4+3) bludgeoning damage. Pick # of the following traits:
  • Walking speed of 60 feet
  • Horns: You have one or two horns, tusks, or a pair of antlers, and can make a gore attack with them, inflicting (1d6+3) piercing damage.
  • Sure-Footed: You have advantage on Strength and Dexterity saving throws made against effects that would knock you prone.
  • Beast of Burden: You are considered to be a one size larger for the purposes of determining your carrying capacity.
  • Charge: If you move at least 20 feet straight towards a target and then hits it with a hoof or gore attack on the same turn, you inflict an extra 7 (2d6) damage.
  • Secondary Attack: You can whack people with your tail or bite them with your strong teeth for (1d10+3) piercing or bludgeoning damage.
At Higher Levels: When you reach 4th level and can change into a form that can swim, you can also become a manatee, plesiosaur, or similar creature. You can also choose the following trait:
  • Hold Breath: You can hold your breath for 1 hour.
And so on.

(Not that it matters, as I'm sure the LU team have their own vision of what to do, and this post is too large to stick in their survey. But I like the brainstorming.)
 
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Rogue climb related knack gives expertise on all athletics checks & a climb speed
1602955100935.png


Fighter climb related knack gives a climb speed, the option to spend exertion to reroll athletics when climbing, and you ignore nonmagical difficult terrain.
1602955165083.png


druid climb related knack gives a climb speed and an expertise die on athletics checks specifically limited to climbing(perhaps if you were using athletics rather than your climb speed to climb?) in comparison to the rogue's unrestrained athletics check expertise die, then it tops it all off with being "acclimated" to a situation likely to almost never come up in any game ever.
1602955265598.png

This is why I precisely why I suggested in my initial that they simply have a chapter for knacks. Fighters, rangers, druids--whoever would logically get a climbing knack would have access to the same knack. No worry about one class getting a better version of the same ability.

And since it looks like there will be a lot of knacks available, combining them like this would not only save on space (no need to print three different versions of "can climb very well") but will also allow some of the knacks to be split up--it looks like we'll need more knacks than we're getting. "Can climb very well" doesn't necessarily have to be lumped with "can move through difficult terrain easily" or "is acclimated to high altitudes." A "Mountaineer" knack could include the expertise die when climbing and the acclimation to high elevations. A "Scrambler" knack could include the ability to move through difficult terrain, whether it's mountainous scree, broken badlands, or urban decay.

(athletics is not even on the druid skill list!)
No, but it's on both the 5e and LU Outlander background (i.e., standard Druid background). But yes, it's odd that Athletics isn't on their list--they're outdoorsfolks! They should be Athletic.
 

tetrasodium

Hero
Supporter
No, but it's on both the 5e and LU Outlander background (i.e., standard Druid background). But yes, it's odd that Athletics isn't on their list--they're outdoorsfolks! They should be Athletic.
Even if they had athletics it would still be a poor knack because of how narrowly restricted that die is. The fact that they don't have it & it's still restricted even more than similar knacks for classes that do have it underscores how lacking the knack is since. I'm sure that fighter could potentially make some use of untrained arcana, but giving them a knack that gives them an expertise die in arcana is an equally confusing fit.
 

Even if they had athletics it would still be a poor knack because of how narrowly restricted that die is. The fact that they don't have it & it's still restricted even more than similar knacks for classes that do have it underscores how lacking the knack is since. I'm sure that fighter could potentially make some use of untrained arcana, but giving them a knack that gives them an expertise die in arcana is an equally confusing fit.

True. Unless they also plan on expanding the skills to make them more useful. LU seems dedicated to improving exploration, and they've done a lot with having skills be used with different attributes. Perhaps there's going to be a chapter on skill use, like the Xannie's expanded toolkits.
 

tetrasodium

Hero
Supporter
True. Unless they also plan on expanding the skills to make them more useful. LU seems dedicated to improving exploration, and they've done a lot with having skills be used with different attributes. Perhaps there's going to be a chapter on skill use, like the Xannie's expanded toolkits.
I think rogue hits a good sweet spot where they have a lot of class features & knacks that focus on giving expertise dice to a couple skills whle adding new trappings to those skills expanding how they can be used for you or just giving powerful new features alongside that expertise die. (Cypher: expertise die deception+some stuff allowing deception to be used in new ways. distraction: expertise die on perform+ new way of using it. Veiled Threat: expertise die on intimidate+new way of using it. Tricky intimidation: expertise die on intimidate+powerful new way of using it. Quick frisk: expertise die on sleight of hand plus new ways of situationally using it to sub for investigate/perception/insight. Spot tell: expertise die on insight+powerful new way of using it. Costumer: expertise die on insight & opponents have disadvantage to see through it. True lie: expertise die on peruasion+new way of using it to sub for persuade. Walk it back: expertise die on deception+powerful new way of using it. Agie athlete: expertise die on athletics+climb speed. Boobytrapper: expertise die on sleight of hand+new way of using it. Delay Trap: expertise die on thieve's tools+new use for them... so on & so forth,). The druid class & knacks don't have that kind of "this is my skill niche & I will use it in ways you can't just from your background proficiency." You could blame some of that on the fact that druid skills are largely bottom of the barrel while rogue skills tend to be top shelf ones among skills, but doing that raises the question of why the addons that go with the expertise die on $skill knacks are so limited & so bad rather than stronger to make up for the bottom rack skills in other ways.

It would be a mistake to have a shared knacks chapter because then it means top shelf quality knacks need to be more limited to account for the fact that any cladss can get them rather than the class(es) they were designed for & you take them from a few cool options for your class to one or two must take options for everyone but this or that unlucky class..
 

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