D&D 5E Levelling NPCs?

[CapnZapp]

How do you tell which level a particular NPC is? That is, how close to levelling up is it?

You might think it's nonconsequential or silly, but I'm not talking about making monsters more dangerous by giving them levels here.

I'm talking about Out of the Abyss which prominently feature NPCs that adventure alongside the player characters. Some of these NPCs are significantly better than any first or second level PC, so we can't just ignore them - they're far from hapless "commoners".

Now, the DMG clearly states that any NPC that travels alongside the PCs are to be given a full share of experience points.

But, unless I am mistaken, the DMG never says what this NPC can do with these XP!

I am not planning on statting up the OotA NPCs as full player characters. This discussion is mostly about Appendix B of the Monster Manual (though a few NPCs are statted up as "pure" monsters from the main body of MM text, such as an Orc or Quaggoth.)

Questions:

Most of these stat blocks do not have the specific line on saving throws. Am I correct in believing this means the NPC simply uses its ability modifiers for saves as well? If it has Dex +1 it would make any "Reflex save" (=Dex save) with +1?

Would it be useful to equate one hit dice with one "level"? That is, a 2 HD NPC (with about 9 hp) would be considered to level up after collecting 600 xp (since that is what any second level character would need to reach third level)?

Or would you say CR enters the equation?

The DMG instructs us to base monster proficiency on CR. Anyone else finding that... impractical in this case (since it would mean having to calculate a CR for each levelled NPC)? Would anything break if you simply based it on level (meaning hit dice per above)?

And finally - okay so the DMG allows us to create NPCs as regular characters with class and level. But does it ever say anything about giving levels to "monster" NPCs? First question: are there any advice on when to give a NPC a class level, and when to "only" give it a hit die?

Some monsters have abilities taken directly from PHB classes; sneak attack is one easy example. How would that progress for a NPC that aren't taking class levels in Rogue?

Any pointers to what the devs are saying would be top priority. Next is: what did the playtest have to say? Finally, if you have any informed suggestions, you're welcome!

 

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*

 

[Minigiant]

You have to figure out its tier.

Then where it is in that tier.

For example, the thug has 5 d8 HD, 2 attacks, and pack tactics. The 2 attacks is what a level 5 fights gets but it lacks Second wind, Action surge, and fighting style. So I'd make it equal to a level 3 fighter. Next level it gets a d10 HD, and a feat or ability increase. After the second level up, you can give it extra attack. Etc. Etc.

The priest NPC is a weak level 5 cleric.

Etc etc.

 

[CapnZapp]

Just realized I might not have marked my main question as prominently as I should have. Let me reiterate for visibility:

Would it be useful to equate one hit dice with one "level"? That is, a 2 HD NPC (with about 9 hp) would be considered to level up after collecting 600 xp (since that is what any second level character would need to reach third level)?

Let's take an example to make it clear what I'm fishing for:

A NPC Noble has 2 hit dice. Assuming there is one among the OotA slaves, what are your opinions on having this NPC "level up" when each PC has amassed 600 xp?

This "level up" would entail the following:
* Another hit die (adding +1d8 hit points).
* No change in proficiency bonus until the NPC hits "level" 5 (that is, reaches 5 HD)

If the NPC has abilities that strongly resemble class abilities, these follow the regular progression. This does not apply to a Noble, but a Priest is a 5 HD creature with level 5 spellcasting, and the Spy (6 HD) would have to be considered a multiclass character with half sneak attack progression (since a regular 6th level Rogue would have more than 2d6 sneak damage).

A friendly NPC Priest that levels twice could then reach 4th level spells. A friendly NPC Spy that levels four times could then get 3d6 sneak damage (since 10 HD divided by two is 5, and 5 levels of Rogue gets you 3d6 sneak).

Is this a good idea? Do you have a better idea?

Thank you

 

[jodyjohnson]

As the party gains levels I let the NPCs increase in Hit Dice to the party average minimum (so JimJar doesn't gain HD until the party hits 7th but Ront and Stool gain HD soon as the party hits 3rd). Generally nothing else changes as I prefer the PCs outstrip the NPCs in power level (except in Stool's case where there is a natural progression).

So they get increased survivability (Hit Points) without any serious gains in other categories. They start the campaign above the PCs in power and fall behind as they progress.

I may grant them ASI's at 4,8,12,16 but probably solely as ASI not Feats.

 

[Minigiant]

Just realized I might not have marked my main question as prominently as I should have. Let me reiterate for visibility:

Would it be useful to equate one hit dice with one "level"? That is, a 2 HD NPC (with about 9 hp) would be considered to level up after collecting 600 xp (since that is what any second level character would need to reach third level)?

Let's take an example to make it clear what I'm fishing for:

A NPC Noble has 2 hit dice. Assuming there is one among the OotA slaves, what are your opinions on having this NPC "level up" when each PC has amassed 600 xp?

This "level up" would entail the following:
* Another hit die (adding +1d8 hit points).
* No change in proficiency bonus until the NPC hits "level" 5 (that is, reaches 5 HD)

If the NPC has abilities that strongly resemble class abilities, these follow the regular progression. This does not apply to a Noble, but a Priest is a 5 HD creature with level 5 spellcasting, and the Spy (6 HD) would have to be considered a multiclass character with half sneak attack progression (since a regular 6th level Rogue would have more than 2d6 sneak damage).

A friendly NPC Priest that levels twice could then reach 4th level spells. A friendly NPC Spy that levels four times could then get 3d6 sneak damage (since 10 HD divided by two is 5, and 5 levels of Rogue gets you 3d6 sneak).

Is this a good idea? Do you have a better idea?

Thank you

No.

1 HD is not equal 1 class level.
Its closer to 2 HD equal to 1 class level for noncasters.

 

[Wolf118]

Here's my take when I read anything that says that NPCs traveling with the party get their share of the XP; it's not to level the NPC, it's to 'soak' XP from the party for using the NPCs to benefit the party.

Not as a punishment, but as a 'tax' or 'cost'. Here you have these other creatures who are fighting alongside you, no matter their reasons. Assuming they do their share of the fighting, then the PCs shouldn't get the full XP for the encounters all to themselves. It's the same whether you hired henchmen, have apprentices, or have allies of convenience.

As to what to do with that XP, that's up to the DM. Unless the NPC already has levels in some particular class, using XP to level up the monsters isn't really going to match up with player leveling. Now if you're going to allow them to develop levels (see the Goblins comic www.goblinscomic.org) that's another matter. I suppose it depends on how much you want to track the monster's progression, and how central they are to the storyline.

But PCs level up to make them better able to take on more dangerous quests. If they progress, and their allies/henchmen/hirelings don't, it's a yardstick by which the PCs can see they've progressed. Here's this dude that fought alongside them at L1; maybe he was better at it than them. By L3, they're equivalent to him. By L5, they've surpassed him, and are saving his ass.

 

[Kalshane]

Honestly, I'd probably convert any NPCs that are going to be working with the party for a long period of time over to PC class levels (or build them that way to begin with.)

In the case of monsters and such that don't mesh nicely with PC class levels, I'd probably set their "level" as their CR (or possibly CR x1.5 or even x2, depending on how they match up compared to individual party members) and then have them "multi-class" into PC classes as appropriate.

 

[CapnZapp]

No.

1 HD is not equal 1 class level.
Its closer to 2 HD equal to 1 class level for noncasters.

No no, look at it the other way round.

If a 6 HD creature is considered to be a level 3 character for purposes of gaining levels, it would IMHO level up too fast.

The 1 HD = 1 level isn't true powerwise, but it's handy to keep the NPC from levelling too fast.

For instance, one of the NPCs of Out of the Abyss is a 6 HD Spy NPC.

If we consider it as a level 6 character, it has 14000 xp and needs to reach 23000 xp to level up. This means it needs 9000 xp, which in turn means it won't level up until well after the party (of level 1 heroes) have reached level 5.

The player characters level five times, the NPC only levels once, which mainly gives it a seventh hit die. It could get a third sneak damage die, or possibly a bumped proficiency bonus, I don't have the specifics.

That is what I mean by slow.

And that is what my proposal is about.

Thoughts?

 

[redrick]

Here's my take when I read anything that says that NPCs traveling with the party get their share of the XP; it's not to level the NPC, it's to 'soak' XP from the party for using the NPCs to benefit the party.

Not as a punishment, but as a 'tax' or 'cost'. Here you have these other creatures who are fighting alongside you, no matter their reasons. Assuming they do their share of the fighting, then the PCs shouldn't get the full XP for the encounters all to themselves. It's the same whether you hired henchmen, have apprentices, or have allies of convenience.

As to what to do with that XP, that's up to the DM. Unless the NPC already has levels in some particular class, using XP to level up the monsters isn't really going to match up with player leveling. Now if you're going to allow them to develop levels (see the Goblins comic www.goblinscomic.org) that's another matter. I suppose it depends on how much you want to track the monster's progression, and how central they are to the storyline.

But PCs level up to make them better able to take on more dangerous quests. If they progress, and their allies/henchmen/hirelings don't, it's a yardstick by which the PCs can see they've progressed. Here's this dude that fought alongside them at L1; maybe he was better at it than them. By L3, they're equivalent to him. By L5, they've surpassed him, and are saving his ass.

Agreed. I doubt that the adventure is written with the intention of the companion NPCs gaining levels as they go. The fact that they absorb XP that would otherwise go to PCs doesn't mean that they can actually use that XP. It is just to keep the PCs from getting too much XP when there are NPCs making the combats easier.

As the PCs increase in level, many of the NPCs that were valuable as companions early on might become less valuable later. So it goes.