D&D 5E Levelling NPCs?

[CapnZapp]

I don't think using HD to equate to level in any fashion will work. Let's take a look at an example:
- An orc and a gnoll are both CR 1/2 monsters, meaning they are roughly equivalent in ability.
- The orc has 2d8+6 Hit Dice (due to 16 Con)
- The gnoll has 5d8 Hit Dice

With a spread like that (2-5), how can you equate HD to levels?

Rather than driving yourself crazy with the math, why not level the NPCs as needed? If the party is looking weak in a fight, bump up the NPCs a Hit Dice or so, or give them another +1 to hit. If the party is weak on spellcasters, give an existing NPC spellcaster either more spells or another slot at a higher level.

Rather than trying to be exact, and compare yourself to a scale that doesn't exist, make it easier on yourself by giving the PCs what they need (or what you foresee they might need in a future encounter).

You can't know this but I don't use CR. I believe it is inaccurate to the point of being useless. (The how and why we can keep to another thread) In this context I would very much like not to have to calculate Challenge Ratings. While the monster entries already have CRs listed, if I based levelling on CR I would have to re-calculate CR to keep a creature's CR current as it levels up, or I won't know when it is time to level up the next time.

As for driving myself crazy, thanks for your concern. Level as needed is a fair suggestion, though I would miss having some crunch, even if it would be pseudocrunch only...!

And to that end, if something would drive me crazy, it would be to use Challenge Ratings...

For starters, level 1 would correspond to something like CR 1/8. CR 1 is more like level three or four. But I'm gonna stop there.

To be fair you've confused CR and HD in your example above.

The Orc would be, per OP, a 2nd level creature and the gnoll a 5th.

Perhaps you could hybridise it:
- starting level equivalent is HD/2
- level progression is based on HD/1
- thus your 6HD Spy would have the abilities of a 3rd level character but would require the amount of XP needed to go from Level 6 to Level 7 before he gained his "actual" 4th level equivalency.

Would this satisfy OPs need for slow advancement combined with simple yardstick of abilities?

Well, I am not confusing CR for HD at least, not sure if you meant me.

As for your example, I'm afraid you (too) might be having it backwards: what does "your 6HD Spy would have the abilities of a 3rd level character" even mean? What is a "actual" 4th level equivalency?

But let me stop you right there, because what happens when you level is a given: you gain a hit die; you gain an ability increase at levels 4, 8, 12; your proficiency bonus increases at levels 5, 9, 13. Etc.

What this exercise is about is simply finding out WHEN to level. I don't want to mess with the stat blocks beyond that.

So to interpret your hybrid example the only way I know how:

- starting level equivalent is HD/2
- level progression is based on HD/1
- thus your 6HD Spy would have the abilities of a 6HD Spy but would count as a level 3 (6/2=3) creature for purposes of levelling. Thus require the amount of XP needed to go from Level 3 to Level 4 before he gained his 7th Hit Die.

I have marked the changes in bold. Not sure if this is what you meant. If so, thank you - now I understand. Otherwise, feel free to respond.

 

[CapnZapp]

Basing off hit dice has the problem that casters have a lot fewer hd than non-casters for their CR - typically caster CR is 2/3 hd, hd = caster level, whereas non-casters have a CR about 1/3 of their hd. Treating non-caster hd as their level works ok, but for casters I think you'd need to use their CRx2 to get something equivalent.
Eg: A Gladiator has 15 hd and CR 5, treat as level 15 for progression. A Mage has 9 hd and
CR 6, treat as level 12 for progression. I suggest 50,000 XP per hd over level 20.

Personally, I tried tracking NPC XP but mostly I arbitrarily increase the hd and abilities of NPCs with the party whenever I think it's appropriate. In particular I keep an eye on Tier abilities like multi-attack. Alternative would be to have NPCs have full class/level progression but that's a lot to track and likely to be overpowered.

Thank you but you make way too much of CRs.

The important criteria for NPCs isn't "how dangerous would they be against a party of PCs".

The important criteria for NPCs is "how fragile are they compared to an individual PC". Their offensive ability isn't nearly as important as the NPCs ability to fend for itself in combat - as soon as it would die way before the PCs it becomes a burden and a liability.

Therefore the single-most important aspect of a NPC is its hit points, since in 5E hp is paramount in signaling "level".

Then and only then, if the NPC can actually contribute to defeating the enemy, that's nice But the PCs have no use for a hypotetical NPC that would hit as hard as any PC but be far weaker on defense.

No player likes it when their allies die on their watch; and if the PCs need to actively pamper their NPCs they have no place in the party any longer. Nobody likes a WoW-style escort quest, after all.

When it comes to your examples, I would treat a 9 HD Mage as level 9. After all, he is a level 9 spellcaster with access to level 5 spells.

As for the Gladiator, yes, he does soft damage for a level 15 character (monsters generally do that), but he does have 112 hit points.

So I know the scheme isn't perfect - spellcasters get a good deal with full spellcasting and d8 hit dice while bruisers get shafted with dealing damage as poorly as monsters.

Thanks for bringing this up, but I would be more inclined to bling up the Gladiator than to conclude the scheme isn't working.

And besides, this scheme only needs to hold together for the first few levels. In all likelyhood, the NPCs will be gone no later than level 8, when the adventure switches gears.

Regards,
Zapp

 

[CapnZapp]

Doesn't work.
Why?

Because an NPC's main contribution to the PCs is to OFFENSE not DEFENSE. Players don't want NPC rolling skills for them unless they hired them for their skill so proficiency is moot.
Don't look at the HD. HD is inflated for NPCs as they were designed to take hits.

A 6HD Spy NPC is about equal to a level 3 rogue as it deals damage of a level 3 rogue (2 attacks plus 2d6 Sneak attack).

Don't Evaluate NPCs based on their HD. Evaluate NPCs based on their damage.
Don't Evaluate NPCs based on their HD. Evaluate NPCs based on their damage.
Don't Evaluate NPCs based on their HD. Evaluate NPCs based on their damage.

Because if you base it on their HD, you'll evaluate too high and give the enemies too make allies to balance it out.

The best way is to find the PC class level equal to the NPC's damage for 3 turns. Then if the NPC has more HP, go up 1 level.

So a 6 HD Spy is equal to a level 4 rogue. (2 shortsword attacks plus 2d6 Sneak attack = 2 shortsword attacks plus 2d6 Sneak attack).

A 8 HD Knight is equal to a level 5 fighter. (Second wind + Action Surge = Extra HD and no feat and fighting style)

A 2 HD Guard is less than a level 1 fighter.

Etc
Etc.

Sorry but I don't follow your line of reasoning.

The fact NPCs aren't equal to characters of equal level/hit dice, that's supposed to be a good thing, right.

After all, the reason we aren't using fully classed NPCs is to ensure the NPCs don't overshadow the PCs.

Again, it seems you have it backwards. I'm not disputing that a Spy is weaker than a Rogue. But that's the point - if I were to level up the Spy as a level 3 or 4 Rogue, it would level up faster than if I level it up as a level 6 character.

And that would probably be too good.

As for the purpose of a NPC I would say I don't agree at all - the main purpose for an NPC ally is to support the story of "a band of characters travelling together". Escaped slaves, in this case.

The next function for these NPCs is to be another body in combat, soaking attacks and allowing the PCs more time to shine. Not to steal the spotlight themselves.

As before, I get the feeling we are talking about different things. You use the word evaluate all the time. This is not about evaluating these NPCs at all. This is not about making a fair assessment of their abilities.

Even if a 8 HD Knight is equal to a level 5 fighter, that's not a good reason to level it up like a level 5 character. If anything, it's a reason NOT to level it up as a level 5 character if you want to keep the spotlight on the Player Characters.

I sincerely hopes this helps. If it does, I would ask you to re-read my initial posts, and post your thoughts on my suggestions

 

[CapnZapp]

Edit: Just spotted you're talking about encounter-building by XP budget and what level to count NPCs as. Best bet there is use CR; a CR 6 Mage accompanying the PCs will cancel out a CR 6 monster.

Ah.

I have also completely missed this. (In fact I still don't see it).

Minigiant: what my discussion is about is "when is it appropriate to level up NPCs, and how to handle that level up"

That has absolutely nothing to do with CR, EL or anything of the sort. This is not about creating encounters.

It is about "Jimjar is a NPC Spy, when does he level up?", "how many xp would you say a 6 HD Spy would need to level up?" and "how would you do that level-up, does it seem reasonable to hand out the same basic stuff a PC would get, namely a new Hit Die, possibly a proficiency bonus increase or ability stat increase?"

 

[Minigiant]

Ah.

I have also completely missed this. (In fact I still don't see it).

Minigiant: what my discussion is about is "when is it appropriate to level up NPCs, and how to handle that level up"

That has absolutely nothing to do with CR, EL or anything of the sort. This is not about creating encounters.

It is about "Jimjar is a NPC Spy, when does he level up?", "how many xp would you say a 6 HD Spy would need to level up?" and "how would you do that level-up, does it seem reasonable to hand out the same basic stuff a PC would get, namely a new Hit Die, possibly a proficiency bonus increase or ability stat increase?"

And I'm saying Jimjar is a equal to a level 4 rogue. He'd need as much XP as a level 4 rogue needs to get to level 5 and gets level 5 rogue features or something equivalent (1d8 HD + Uncanny dodge).

Edit: You might not give that third 1d6 sneak attack die though. Jimjar has to wait 2 more levels before I'd give him a third 1d6 die.

Jimjar would still be weaker than a equal level rogue but you can gauge him right.

 

[Uchawi]

I am not offering a solution for how to level a NPC, but I would consider the consequences of leveling NPCs, because whatever challenge rating is assumed later on in the adventure will have to be adjusted. That includes granting NPCs magic items. Therefore, I would just consider the NPC drain on experience for the party overall (because challenges are easier), but treat the NPCs as a constant (and not worry about leveling them). Just granting an NPC the use of magic items is going to create havoc depending on the item.

 

[Herobizkit]

I would just approximate the NPC level based on what 'class' they're most like, and award them half-shares as opposed to full-shares; this way, they can advance but not nearly as fast as the PC's.

In the specific case of OoTA, I think the idea is that the PC's are supposed to shepherd these fragile NPC's and I would expect some or all of the NPC's would die at some point. If so, I wouldn't advance them at all and let the chips fall where they may. That would be in line with the survival theme of the adventure.

If the OP is very curious, he could always 'port' NPC classes from 3.x (Adept, Warrior, Expert, Commoner, Aristocrat) and use the 5e level advancement chart.

 

[S'mon]

I would just approximate the NPC level based on what 'class' they're most like, and award them half-shares as opposed to full-shares; this way, they can advance but not nearly as fast as the PC's.

In practice I tend to have NPCs take no more than half shares of XP, unless they're very powerful.

CapnZapp if you don't use XP then you should ad hoc level when it feels right, something like 1 NPC advancement every 2 PC advancements for casters, or +1 hd every PC advancement for non-casters, should give the effect you want. There are no detailed tables on progressing non-classed NPCs and you'll need to play it by ear when to increase Proficiency (I typically do +1 per 6 hd, rather than PCs' +1 per 4 levels) etc.

 

[Wolf118]

You can't know this but I don't use CR. I believe it is inaccurate to the point of being useless. (The how and why we can keep to another thread) In this context I would very much like not to have to calculate Challenge Ratings. While the monster entries already have CRs listed, if I based levelling on CR I would have to re-calculate CR to keep a creature's CR current as it levels up, or I won't know when it is time to level up the next time.

As for driving myself crazy, thanks for your concern. Level as needed is a fair suggestion, though I would miss having some crunch, even if it would be pseudocrunch only...!

And to that end, if something would drive me crazy, it would be to use Challenge Ratings...

For starters, level 1 would correspond to something like CR 1/8. CR 1 is more like level three or four. But I'm gonna stop there.

I was only using the CR to equate two monsters of equal ability, to show the disparity in HD. But, as others have pointed out, the equivalent for comparing monsters is not HD, but CR. It doesn't matter if you don't use CR; the game designers did. That underpins both the game structure and any associated products (like the NPCs you're using in OOTA). So unless you're using monsters of your own creation, if you're going to be leveling monsters, you're looking at a change in CR, whether you use it or not.

Here's the crux; you're trying to create a yardstick by which to measure an increase in monster ability as they level. One exists, and it's CR. Maybe it's broken, maybe it doesn't work the way you want it to work. But as a summary of a monster's ability, similar to player level, it is the closest equivalent.

Assuming you've haven't stopped reading by now cool, it would appear you need a structure that is CR-like. Something that sums up both offensive and defensive capability. The basic CR structure looks at HP (but not HD) and AC for defense, and DPR and Attack Bonus/DC for offense. Perhaps you need to create your own table for those specific abilities/features, or maybe just a simple equation that says "for the equivalent PC level, a monster should have X". Maybe compare/contrast with the standard PC leveling schema, since you want your monsters to advance on par with the players.

 

[The Grassy Gnoll]

I was putting forth my hybrid idea to say

6hd spy=3rd level rogue for skills, abilities etc (6hd for HP)
But to slow level advancement,as the gaps between levels are greater at higher levels,treat him as starting at the bottom of the level 6 XP score (6hd) and needing the XP to reach level 7 before he actually levels up to a level 4 scout and accompanying ability/proficiency bonuses.

Prob not explaining too well, sorry.