Levels and PrC's in your campaign (Again)

[Ralts Bloodthorne]

OK, after reading through the "D&D Study" thread (or whatever it was calle) I noticed that a lot of people were discussing levels in campaigns and PrC's.
Personally, I was kind of startled that a lot of people didn't feel that the Ranger or Fighter or the Paladin was worth playing above 10th level, and many of the other opinions that were given out there.
As it is, I was wondering (since my campaign spans from 1st level into high Epic Levels) why people consider upper levels so useless.

 

[drnuncheon]

As it is, I was wondering (since my campaign spans from 1st level into high Epic Levels) why people consider upper levels so useless.

I never understood it, especially after reading Pcat's and Sagiro's Story Hours.

My own Freeport Story Hour has just hit the 11th-level mark and is still going strong - and I've had the players continually ask, "We are going to go all the way to Epic, right?"

My Online Story Hour is at 3rd level, so it's not really relevant.

The next game I'm involved with (part-time DM/part-time player, not yet started, same folks as the OSH) is starting up at 14th level, but using characters we've played before - and we're all excited about seeing what these higher-level characters can do.

J

 

[Crothian]

I don't get it either. My first d20 game went to 26th level. Since then I've ran a game that went to ten, and played in one that went to 9th, and to 20th. Currently I'm playing in a game were we are all 9th. None of us have yet to take a prestige class either.

 

[Lord Zardoz]

Misplaced Reasoning...

Well, here is my outlook at the situation.

Most players take a look at the level advancement benefits of all of the available classes. Fighters get new feats every other level. Clerics, Bards, Sorcerers, and Wizards get new spells every level. Rogues get at least a new sneak attack die every other level. Monks get a completely new ability every at almost every level.

However, a Rangers most appealing class benefits come just from taking 1 level in the class, and the favored enemy only improves every 5th level. And it is no secret that most players do not like the favored enemy advancement of the ranger. The Paladin gets some very nice class abilities, but by 6th level, you only get increased uses of Improved disease. Both Rangers and Paladins do get more spells, but the spells really arent going to turn the tide of any great fights.

Barbarians get some great abilities early, and some nice stuff at higher levels, but levels 6 through 11 only give you one more Rage per day. And many DM's usually end up running games that provide many opportunities for the players to rest.

I dont know why anyone would say that fighter is not that useful after 10th level. However, it may be that by 10th level, most players have already obtained all of the combat feats that they think their character should have. A quick count give me 10 Feats (11 if your human) for a 10th level character. That covers Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Improved Critical, Improved Initiative, and one of the "feat chains" (such as Power attack -> Cleave -> Great Cleave + Sunder + Bull Rush). At 10th level, a fighter could have all of those with room to spare.

Anyway, I have not yet been able to run a campaign long enough for such things to become a problem.

END COMMUNICATION

 

[Nightfall]

As it stands now, most of my players have little multi-class involved. While some, such as Ban Stormwatcher and Hannah, are indeeding multiclassing, they are doing so BECAUSE it fits their character, not for powergaming reasons. Certainly I think they will continue to advance in level in both their Pr-classes as well as regular classes. Silas is probably going to stay a paladin for quite some time, only changing by feats or other ways. As for Varl...no one is QUITE sure how he's going about, but I imagine he'll be pretty much staying true to his fighter/rogue roots.

 

[Sanackranib]

PrC and levels over 10

I usually come up with a concept then ask myself what class (or classes) I need to take to make it happen. my latest Idea is for a rogue relic hunter (indiana jones type) inorder to do this I took 5 levels of rogue, 2 levels of fighter and the prestige class temple raider of olidamara, my next level will be as a lasher and the whip will be my main weapon. I will likely take 2 maby 3 levels as a lasher but the most focus will be as a temple raider. so if the campaign takes us past level 27 then I will take more rogue levels. The DM has some really good ideas and its going to be a long term campaign. some PC's will multiclass others will not. Since I usually run the game I am lookig forward to trying some new things on this rare occasion that I will be a player.

 

[Destil]

The real problem is they don't get much above statistical advancement in high levels. Though I think many people tend to discount their spells quite a bit, there's some fairly good stuff, there.

The palidin in my game will most likely end up with levels of Hunter of the Dead, simply because it fits his concept. But even if he dosn't, we've allready talked about trading his warhorse for bonus divine feats, and I'll most likely give him the option of trading some of the remove disease uses for other anit-undead abilities.

 

[ruleslawyer]

IMHO, the ranger's and paladin's problems with advancing to high levels in a single class have to do with frontloading. The paladin gets its best benefits (smite evil, divine grace, aura of courage, disease immunity, detect evil) within two levels, and gains little after this, compared to advancement in, say, cleric. The ranger is worse, gaining everything that's really good about the class in a single level, and lacking even the carrot of mount advancement to keep things interesting at high levels.

The fighter's advancement problems are really fixed by including more high-level fighter feats. I'd actually consider adding some of the feats from OA (Superior Expertise comes to mind) and possibly making some of the ELH fighter feats "non-epic" and accessible to high-level fighters. In particular, I'd consider making Epic Weapon Focus and Epic Weapon Specialization non-epic, or simply introducing Superior Weapon Focus/Superior Weapon Specialization feats that follow the pattern for Greater Spell Focus/Greater Spell Penetration (+2 attack bonus/+4 damage bonus replacing, rather than stacking with, the benefits for WF/WS). Improved Whirlwind definitely could be non-epic, IMHO, since its benefits are so spotty to begin with. I also might consider throwing in a feat that adds 1 to a crit multiplier.

 

[drnuncheon]

The fighter's advancement problems are really fixed by including more high-level fighter feats.

I never understood the "fighter advancement problem". Do most people not have the need or desire to take more than one feat path? Are all the fighters that specialized?

I guess that a lot of fighters throw all of their feats into getting the combat feats early, and then they get to high levels and find only 'miscellaneous' feats left - ones they could have been taking as their every-3rd-level feat since the beginning.

Still, I suspect that a truly well-rounded fighter would have no problem spending all of his feats.

J

 

[ruleslawyer]

The problem isn't well-roundedness, it's the halt in gain in raw power. A primary caster gains increasingly powerful one-shot kill capability as s/he gains levels, AND has a variety of tricks up his/her sleeve. A combat character like the rogue or barbarian gains steadily escalating damage capability, in addition to a better BAB, more attacks, and better ways of exploiting that damage capability. The fighter, OTOH, gains only additional tricks. Let's assume only core feats (plus Knockdown) and a human fighter. Try this progression:

L1: Combat Reflexes, Dodge, EWP: duom or spiked chain
L2: Expertise
L3: Improved Trip
L4: Mobility
L6: Spring Attack, Whirlwind Attack
L8: Knockdown
L9: Power Attack
L10: Cleave

OK, you're now done with both your power and tripping chains. Granted, you've skipped "flavor" feats, but how many people take those? Save feats would be useful, but that just takes you to 12th level. Do you now want to be an archer as well? There's probably someone in the party who already serves that function, and besides, the casters are going to be better at range anyway.

I'm not trying to suggest that the above character doesn't have plenty of options. My point is merely that specialists do best in D&D. A fighter specialist gets capped pretty soon. Sure, he can function in a variety of situations, but it's not like the above character is bad with a bow or a big sword. Moreover, he won't be getting to do anything that makes him better at his primary combat style after 10th level. The wizard, OTOH, is getting 6th-9th-level spells past this point.

This character has practically everything to gain by taking a 10-level PrC and having done with. With the above character, I'd probably skip Cleave and take Imp Critical, subsequently moving on to Weapon Master, or multiclass.