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LGS Thief the Dark Project: Keeper PrC
- Thread starter Kemrain
- Start date
A few good smacks and you're toast, even if you're epic, like Garret.
Kemrain
First Post
Thank you Piratecat. I am forever in your debt. If you need anything of me, time, labor, a kidney, you have but to ask.
I gave the class d4 hp because of the system I'm running, and to balance out the 2 Extraordinary abilities they get every level.
I'm running this game in the Grim and Gritty system, so HP progression isn't rolled at all, it's planned on a table progression, and you get either one hit point per level, or less, like Base Attack Bonus. The poorest progression equates to a d4 HP, so I gave them that, so that they'd only gain 2 hp over 5 levels. I felt it was important to balance the class' nonexistant combat progression against the massive bonuses they gain to skills, and to keep the deadly feel of the Thief games. (And you can always take toughness! A lot more useful when your main fighter has 17 HP, huh?)
I had consitered giving them a base attack increase of 0 for all 5 levels, but decided against it because of the combat training Garrett is given in the training mission in The Dark Project.
I gave Keepers such poor HP progression to help reinforce the fact that, while they may be some of the most skilled men around, they are still quite mortal.
However, if you wished to take the class and give them d6 HP, I doubt it would break it too-too much. I won't, but tweaks are what this is all about.
Oh, and Angcuru.. You think Garrett was Epic? Wow.. I had him pegged at 9th level after leaving the Keepers. Though I guess it depends on how well you play, eh?
- Kemrain the Melodramatic... and Getting what 'e Wanted
I gave the class d4 hp because of the system I'm running, and to balance out the 2 Extraordinary abilities they get every level.
I'm running this game in the Grim and Gritty system, so HP progression isn't rolled at all, it's planned on a table progression, and you get either one hit point per level, or less, like Base Attack Bonus. The poorest progression equates to a d4 HP, so I gave them that, so that they'd only gain 2 hp over 5 levels. I felt it was important to balance the class' nonexistant combat progression against the massive bonuses they gain to skills, and to keep the deadly feel of the Thief games. (And you can always take toughness! A lot more useful when your main fighter has 17 HP, huh?)
I had consitered giving them a base attack increase of 0 for all 5 levels, but decided against it because of the combat training Garrett is given in the training mission in The Dark Project.
I gave Keepers such poor HP progression to help reinforce the fact that, while they may be some of the most skilled men around, they are still quite mortal.
However, if you wished to take the class and give them d6 HP, I doubt it would break it too-too much. I won't, but tweaks are what this is all about.
Oh, and Angcuru.. You think Garrett was Epic? Wow.. I had him pegged at 9th level after leaving the Keepers. Though I guess it depends on how well you play, eh?
- Kemrain the Melodramatic... and Getting what 'e Wanted
I get your point.
Dr_Rictus
First Post
Hey, Kemrain. Piratecat brought this thread to my attention. I was lead designer of Thief and Thief II.
Haven't gone over all the details, but I would suggest that the Keepers' alignment restriction might be okay as just Neutral with respect to the Law/Chaos axis, not necessarily true Neutral. We always framed the core conflict in Thief around anarchy (D&D chaos, represented by the pagans) vs. authoritarianism (D&D law, represented by the hammers). Then again, the Keepers' own excessive conservatism might be best represented by the D&D view of what you might call "millitant neutrality" as a form of True Neutral. I could see it going either way.
There's also an element of magic vs. craft there, but the hammers are not entirely without mysticism (their priests use a pretty obvious variation on a spiritual hammer), and their artisanship leans a bit towards weird science (even steampunk) when taken to extremes, as we see in Thief II. So I'd say the law vs. chaos or civilization vs. nature conflicts are more pronounced than the supernatural vs. human one.
The take on the glyphs is good. The fact of a secret language alone adds mystique, and needn't be over-embellished.
That said, the Keepers are a scholarly and mystical organization as well as an espionage one. I wouldn't tinker with this class based on that, but I might add Loremasters to their ranks. Their divination requirement meshes nicely with the Keepers' obsession with prophecy, too.
I don't see the need for the 15+ Intelligence requirement, when so many of the class abilities key to Intelligence anyway. I like WotC's standard in this regard, where ability scores are required of classes as a practical matter, not as a technicality.
I never was fond of Traps & Treachery's Urban Lore skill. New skills deflate the value of a skill point, and are almost never necessary. Especially since D&D 3.5 is making this "Survival" anyway, in which case do you really need separate skills for wilderness and urban survival, in a setting that hardly ever leaves the city?
Haven't gone over all the details, but I would suggest that the Keepers' alignment restriction might be okay as just Neutral with respect to the Law/Chaos axis, not necessarily true Neutral. We always framed the core conflict in Thief around anarchy (D&D chaos, represented by the pagans) vs. authoritarianism (D&D law, represented by the hammers). Then again, the Keepers' own excessive conservatism might be best represented by the D&D view of what you might call "millitant neutrality" as a form of True Neutral. I could see it going either way.
There's also an element of magic vs. craft there, but the hammers are not entirely without mysticism (their priests use a pretty obvious variation on a spiritual hammer), and their artisanship leans a bit towards weird science (even steampunk) when taken to extremes, as we see in Thief II. So I'd say the law vs. chaos or civilization vs. nature conflicts are more pronounced than the supernatural vs. human one.
The take on the glyphs is good. The fact of a secret language alone adds mystique, and needn't be over-embellished.
That said, the Keepers are a scholarly and mystical organization as well as an espionage one. I wouldn't tinker with this class based on that, but I might add Loremasters to their ranks. Their divination requirement meshes nicely with the Keepers' obsession with prophecy, too.
I don't see the need for the 15+ Intelligence requirement, when so many of the class abilities key to Intelligence anyway. I like WotC's standard in this regard, where ability scores are required of classes as a practical matter, not as a technicality.
I never was fond of Traps & Treachery's Urban Lore skill. New skills deflate the value of a skill point, and are almost never necessary. Especially since D&D 3.5 is making this "Survival" anyway, in which case do you really need separate skills for wilderness and urban survival, in a setting that hardly ever leaves the city?
Last edited:
Kemrain
First Post
Dr_Rictus, thank you for responding to my post. I appreciate you taking the time out to look my ideas over, and to share your creativity with a fan of your works. That being said, I will enjoy responding immensely.
The Law vs. Chaos point was well made. My description should have included that, and I will eventually edit it to do just that, as soon as I find a way to word it well. I must admit that my view of this is not as objective as it should be, and your post has brought this to my attention. Thank you. I will do what I can to make this duality apparent in my game, though I am currently at a loss as to how I will accomplish this. Fortunately, I have months of prep time to work with.
I am exceptionally lenient with regards to Alignment, and I do not enforce it upon my players. I let them decide their alignment and play how they see fit, and keep notes on my own what I think their alignment really is. If I feel they've changed enough to warrant the change on the sheet, I discuss it with them. There are very few consequences to alignment in my games, but as this is open content and can be used by others, I see no problem in allowing Keepers played in other games to be NG TN or NE. I feel that the Keepers would notice a change in their brother eventually, and confront the offender, either getting them to change their ways (Under surveillance, to be sure) or leave. Hence not being able to progress in the class. I don't think that you should be able to continue Keeper training without a Keeper tutor, and as far as we have seen in the game, no one has been willing to teach outside the order. (Means nothing if I make a special NPC, but...)
The Magic vs Craft issue is an important one, and the one I feel I will focus on in the game I run. This is what I feel Man vs Supernatural is represented by, as people who can hurl balls of fire or summon water elementals (albeit poorly, apparently) is certainly no longer a 'natural creature'. I can not let the Hand Brotherhood, or even the Hammerites go in my game using the Wizard or Cleric classes, so more Prestige here. I have my work cut out for me. Because I want the game to be low-powered for a while, which to me says low level, I need their adversaries to be powerful, but lower in level than in many other games. The Order of the Hammer's High Priest, if I can remember without my notes, is capable of casting up to 5th level spells. and that's amazing, as far as anyone else is concerned. (He IS 12th or 15th level, if I recall, but still.) I have basically capped the spell progression at 5th level, with anything over that being considered Epic, and not written up yet. The Hand brotherhood has their own PrC and is capped at 5th level spells as well, but because I want these people to be conceivably defeat-able, or at least avoidable, their PrC could be taken at 2nd level, if you take your first level as an Aristocrat or an Expert, for the high will save, and spend a feat on Iron Will. I want them to be powerful, but mortal enough to deal with.
The Law vs. Chaos point was well made. My description should have included that, and I will eventually edit it to do just that, as soon as I find a way to word it well. I must admit that my view of this is not as objective as it should be, and your post has brought this to my attention. Thank you. I will do what I can to make this duality apparent in my game, though I am currently at a loss as to how I will accomplish this. Fortunately, I have months of prep time to work with.
I am exceptionally lenient with regards to Alignment, and I do not enforce it upon my players. I let them decide their alignment and play how they see fit, and keep notes on my own what I think their alignment really is. If I feel they've changed enough to warrant the change on the sheet, I discuss it with them. There are very few consequences to alignment in my games, but as this is open content and can be used by others, I see no problem in allowing Keepers played in other games to be NG TN or NE. I feel that the Keepers would notice a change in their brother eventually, and confront the offender, either getting them to change their ways (Under surveillance, to be sure) or leave. Hence not being able to progress in the class. I don't think that you should be able to continue Keeper training without a Keeper tutor, and as far as we have seen in the game, no one has been willing to teach outside the order. (Means nothing if I make a special NPC, but...)
The Magic vs Craft issue is an important one, and the one I feel I will focus on in the game I run. This is what I feel Man vs Supernatural is represented by, as people who can hurl balls of fire or summon water elementals (albeit poorly, apparently) is certainly no longer a 'natural creature'. I can not let the Hand Brotherhood, or even the Hammerites go in my game using the Wizard or Cleric classes, so more Prestige here. I have my work cut out for me. Because I want the game to be low-powered for a while, which to me says low level, I need their adversaries to be powerful, but lower in level than in many other games. The Order of the Hammer's High Priest, if I can remember without my notes, is capable of casting up to 5th level spells. and that's amazing, as far as anyone else is concerned. (He IS 12th or 15th level, if I recall, but still.) I have basically capped the spell progression at 5th level, with anything over that being considered Epic, and not written up yet. The Hand brotherhood has their own PrC and is capped at 5th level spells as well, but because I want these people to be conceivably defeat-able, or at least avoidable, their PrC could be taken at 2nd level, if you take your first level as an Aristocrat or an Expert, for the high will save, and spend a feat on Iron Will. I want them to be powerful, but mortal enough to deal with.
Kemrain
First Post
However, I have imposed societal restrictions on my PrC's, so that only the people who devote themselves to them and their respective groups can start and progress. This means that most of them won’t work at all in other games, but that’s OK to me, because they were never meant to.
The Keepers are a scholarly and mystical organization, I agree. For those career paths, I have decided to make more 5 level PrC’s that will stack on top of the original Keeper class. A Keeper Mystic or Keeper Scholar make wonderful ideas, and I think I will even give the Mystical students limited spell access, mostly to the divination school. Think of a spell progression similar to the Assassin PrC in the DMG. I think something like that could work and be appropriate for the feel of the game, and still let me keep a tight control over the availability and commonality of Magics. I am doing my best to keep magic something terribly mysterious, and killing the core magic classes and giving people new spell lists is one, rather exhaustive, way of achieving that goal.
Do you have any ideas as to what abilities a Keeper Mystic or Keeper Scholar might possess? Do you have any idea what the 3rd (I wanted to make 3 for balance) Keeper PrC should be? My D&D training says make it combat oriented, but that’s crazy, and I’m a little lost as to how I could make a Keeper even more stealthy and skill-oriented.
The 15+ Intelligence Requirement. Okay, you’re right. I was just looking for a way to have another prerequisite, and you’re right in saying that that’s not the way the designers of the Prestige class concept thought it should go. It’s out, and I realize the class is strengthened by it. However, I now feel that I should require something more to take this class. Uncanny Dodge makes sense to me, and it isn’t harsh in restricting the classes you can enter the PrC from, because the only classes available at 1st level are Rogue, Commoner, Expert and (Maybe) Aristocrat. That in of it’s self is harsh, but it fits the type of game I want this to be, and my players were OK with it.
Your point about Urban Lore is a good one, but after thinking about it, I’ve decided to let it stay. It might lower the value of a skill point, but I’ve also increased the number of skill points everyone gets. I also want there to be a separation between Urban survival and Wilderness survival, because the PC’s may have to spend time out side the city walls, for instance, on their way to Cragscleft, or hunting down that Pagan village. I want to make sure that they have a rough time of it, and making wilderness survival separate and cross classed is a good way to keep them from feeling comfortable outside the walls. I want them to fear the wilds, as all good little Manfools should.
Oh, I almost forgot. The Spiritual Hammer reference. From watching the way the spell is cast and used, I have decided how I’ll use that in my game. Take the Inflict Wounds spells, change them into Ranged Touch Attacks, and, maybe, give them no verbal component. In the games, I watched Hammers throw these without speaking, though I think it would add more flavor to have them chant a prayer to the builder. Spiritual Hammer makes a weapon that attacks on it’s own, and lasts for multiple rounds. To me, that isn’t what the spell did in the games. A Ranged Touch Attack, IMO, fits what we see best.
Thank you again for posting a reply. I am thrilled to have you look at my ideas. Thanks a ton.
- Kemrain the Grateful
The Keepers are a scholarly and mystical organization, I agree. For those career paths, I have decided to make more 5 level PrC’s that will stack on top of the original Keeper class. A Keeper Mystic or Keeper Scholar make wonderful ideas, and I think I will even give the Mystical students limited spell access, mostly to the divination school. Think of a spell progression similar to the Assassin PrC in the DMG. I think something like that could work and be appropriate for the feel of the game, and still let me keep a tight control over the availability and commonality of Magics. I am doing my best to keep magic something terribly mysterious, and killing the core magic classes and giving people new spell lists is one, rather exhaustive, way of achieving that goal.
Do you have any ideas as to what abilities a Keeper Mystic or Keeper Scholar might possess? Do you have any idea what the 3rd (I wanted to make 3 for balance) Keeper PrC should be? My D&D training says make it combat oriented, but that’s crazy, and I’m a little lost as to how I could make a Keeper even more stealthy and skill-oriented.
The 15+ Intelligence Requirement. Okay, you’re right. I was just looking for a way to have another prerequisite, and you’re right in saying that that’s not the way the designers of the Prestige class concept thought it should go. It’s out, and I realize the class is strengthened by it. However, I now feel that I should require something more to take this class. Uncanny Dodge makes sense to me, and it isn’t harsh in restricting the classes you can enter the PrC from, because the only classes available at 1st level are Rogue, Commoner, Expert and (Maybe) Aristocrat. That in of it’s self is harsh, but it fits the type of game I want this to be, and my players were OK with it.
Your point about Urban Lore is a good one, but after thinking about it, I’ve decided to let it stay. It might lower the value of a skill point, but I’ve also increased the number of skill points everyone gets. I also want there to be a separation between Urban survival and Wilderness survival, because the PC’s may have to spend time out side the city walls, for instance, on their way to Cragscleft, or hunting down that Pagan village. I want to make sure that they have a rough time of it, and making wilderness survival separate and cross classed is a good way to keep them from feeling comfortable outside the walls. I want them to fear the wilds, as all good little Manfools should.
Oh, I almost forgot. The Spiritual Hammer reference. From watching the way the spell is cast and used, I have decided how I’ll use that in my game. Take the Inflict Wounds spells, change them into Ranged Touch Attacks, and, maybe, give them no verbal component. In the games, I watched Hammers throw these without speaking, though I think it would add more flavor to have them chant a prayer to the builder. Spiritual Hammer makes a weapon that attacks on it’s own, and lasts for multiple rounds. To me, that isn’t what the spell did in the games. A Ranged Touch Attack, IMO, fits what we see best.
Thank you again for posting a reply. I am thrilled to have you look at my ideas. Thanks a ton.
- Kemrain the Grateful
Dr_Rictus
First Post
Yeah, the spiritual hammer spell was definitely inspiration only. The Hammer priests' attacks do work differently, and I think you've pegged it. The only comment I'd have is that they can throw quite a lot of those things (no limit, actually, in the videogame), so you might also look at produce flame as a point of comparison. Compared to the inflict spells it's less damage, and somewhat balanced at 2nd level by the easy acquisition of elemental resistance, but lets you attack across multiple rounds.
Given the degree to which it sounds like you're focusing on the civilization vs. nature theme, and that you do plan on taking things outside the (capital-C) City to do that, I can certainly see the value of the Survival vs. Urban Lore distinction for your game.
I'm not entirely sure that you need a 3rd Keeper prestige class, symmetry or no. A single-classed rogue is going to be noticeably way more combat oriented than than a Keeper due to the extra sneak attack dice, so that might be enough. If you want a combat-oriented arm, though, I might look at something based off of rangers instead, perhaps looking at the "urban ranger" variants from Masters of the Wild. Rangers (even before 3.5 ed) are underrated as infiltrators, but they are the only class other than rogues to get all of the skills Hide, Move Silently, Spot, and Listen. I know this is perhaps an obscure reference, but the Shadow Scout from Oriental Adventures is an excellent ranger-based infiltrator PrC, for example.
Given the degree to which it sounds like you're focusing on the civilization vs. nature theme, and that you do plan on taking things outside the (capital-C) City to do that, I can certainly see the value of the Survival vs. Urban Lore distinction for your game.
I'm not entirely sure that you need a 3rd Keeper prestige class, symmetry or no. A single-classed rogue is going to be noticeably way more combat oriented than than a Keeper due to the extra sneak attack dice, so that might be enough. If you want a combat-oriented arm, though, I might look at something based off of rangers instead, perhaps looking at the "urban ranger" variants from Masters of the Wild. Rangers (even before 3.5 ed) are underrated as infiltrators, but they are the only class other than rogues to get all of the skills Hide, Move Silently, Spot, and Listen. I know this is perhaps an obscure reference, but the Shadow Scout from Oriental Adventures is an excellent ranger-based infiltrator PrC, for example.
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