Lianne the Cha-monkey

[jasin]

How many different abilities can we tie to Cha? With a bard 1/samurai
2/paladin 4/iaijutsu master, quite a few. Cha to saves, Cha to
initiative, Cha to attack via Snowflake Wardance, Cha to damage via
Divine Might, Cha to attack (again!) via smite evil, Cha to damage
(again, multiple times!) via strike from the Void... her AC sucks
though, with NPC equipment. Any way to get Cha to AC?

A (semi-tongue-in-cheek) background justifying such a weird multiclass
follows, and then the stat block for the character herself.



Born into a family with a long clerical tradition, just as the fires
were being kindled for the Night of Valour, Lianne was considered marked
for greatness in the Church of Morn. Morn's was a dying faith, and
idealist knight's fancy in a broken empire of cynics and squabbling
warlords... which made the disappointment all that more bitter when
Lianne showed a distinct lack of commitment, and pursued song, dance,
and wandering over the Disciplines of Morn.

She had become and accomplished performer, but nowhere close the hero
she was expected to be. The only sword she took up was the ceremonial
one used in the wardances she learned from the Icepeak tribes.

When she crossed east over the Inner Sea and into the Jade Empire, she
found a land much like her own, paying lip service to honour and
chivalry but bowing to raw might and gold. But she also found a man who
was different; an ancient swordsman, leading a life of altruism and
honour, and also a mastery of the sword regarded as an art form in
itself, not just a means to an end like in Lianne's homeland.

At first Lianne listened to the old man because she wanted to look as
good with a sword. Then she listened out of respect. Then she listened
because she knew the old man was right. He taught her the way of the
sword, and the way of the swordsman. She became disciplined and
determined, untiring in her fight against injustice at his side.

But the old man was very old, and one day he died, and his last words to
Lianne were: "Go home." So she went, a sadder and a wiser woman, ready
to take up the dark blue cloak of Morn's warriors that seemed too heavy
and to restictive before.

Over the years, Lianne has blended her exotic eastern sworsmanship and
her dedication to Morn into a unique personal style, and become one of
the foremost heroes of the land, Lianne Lightfoot, Lianne Lightbringer,
the Sword-dancer of Morn. Her uncanny luck and the deceptive swiftness
of her blade are equally legendary, and the commons flock to her
wherever she goes, whether it is just to see her perform one of her
sword dances, or to ask that same sword for protection against darkness.



Female human Brd1/Sam2/Pal4/Iai5; CR 12; Medium Humanoid (human); HD 1d6
+11d10+12 (78 hp); Init +12; Spd 30 ft; AC 18 (touch 12, flat-footed
16); BAB +11/+6/+1; Grap +13/+8/+3; Atk +15/+10/+5 melee (1d10+3/19-20,
+1 focus katana); S/R 5 ft/5 ft; SA Spells, countersong, fascinate, turn
undead 9/day, smite evil 1/day; SQ Bardic music, bardic knowledge,
inspire courage +1, aura of good, divine grace, lay on hands, aura of
courage, divine health, weapon finesse (katana), canny defense,
lightning blade; AL LG; SV Fort +16, Ref +17, Will +15; Str 14, Dex 14,
Con 12, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 22.

Skills and Feats Bluff +11, Diplomacy +27, Iaijutsu Focus +21, Knowledge
(nobility & royalty) +5, Perform (dance) +16, Perform (sing) +12, Sense
Motive +6, Tumble +8, Combat Expertise, Divine Might, Exotic Weapon
Proficiency, Extra Music, Improved Initiative Quick-Draw, Snowflake
Wardance, Weapon Focus (katana).

Equipment +1 katana; +2 chain shirt; cloak of resistance +2; circlet of
charisma +4.

Bard Spells Known (2, save DC = 16 + spell level)
0--know direction, light, message, prestidigitation.

Paladin Spells Prepared (1, save DC = 11 + spell level)
1st--bless weapon.

 

[hong]

Hey there, J!

There's the mystic hippy wanderer prestige class from MaoF? FRCS? that adds your Cha bonus to AC. Which might actually fit this character's backstory pretty well.

You have pretty good saves, so perhaps change the cloak of resistance to a ring of protection? I want to see what this character might look like at 20th.

 

[malladin]

Forgotten Heroes Paladin includes the Gallant PrC, a light-weapons Paladin who gets Cha to AC.


Cheerio,

Ben

 

[jasin]

Hm. The mystic wanderer requirements are a bit of a pain: non-lawful and 2nd-level divine spells (among other things). If she wants to finish the iaijutsu master, Lianne won't have 2nd-level paladin spells by 20th, much less at the beginning before she turns lawful.

But! There's this class on the WotC site, the arcane duelist. I don't think it's a good class, really, neither good as in munchy or good as in well designed; but 2 levels give you apparent defense: Cha to AC... even when armoured!

So a Lianne might have gotten another level of bard before travelling to the east, for the 1st-level spells required by the PrC. She's probably better off in the long run, but this one only really starts to shine at high levels: Snowflake Wardance at 9th, Cha to AC and 14th, Divine Might at 15th, Strike from the Void at 15th... not a problem for an NPC that's to be used at that level, but as a player, I dislike delayed gratification, and we usually start somewhere in the 1st-7th range, so 15th is delayed.

A 20th-level Lianne, this time with PC-quality gear and 40 point stats, so I can compare her to the guys IMC and your Padma more easily.



Female human Brd2/Sam2/Pal4/Iai10/Acd2; CR 20; Medium Humanoid (human); HD 2d6+16d10+2d8+100 (206 hp); Init +21; Spd 30 ft; AC 50 (touch 31, flat-footed 34); BAB +18; Grap +20; Atk +32/+27/+22/+17 melee (1d10+13 plus 1 Con plus 2d6 holy/19-20, katana) or +29/+24/+19/+14 (1d8+7/x3, longbow); S/R 5 ft/5 ft; SA Spells, countersong, fascinate, turn undead 19/day, smite evil 1/day, strike from the Void, one strike two cuts; SQ Bardic music, bardic knowledge, inspire courage +1, aura of good, divine grace, lay on hands, aura of courage, divine health, weapon finesse (katana), canny defense, lightning blade, strike with no thought, chosen weapon, enhance chosen weapon +1; AL LG; SV Fort +31, Ref +34, Will +27; Str 14, Dex 22, Con 20, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 33.

Skills and Feats: Bluff +20, Diplomacy +44, Iaijutsu Focus +43, Knowledge (nobility & royalty) +6, Perform (dance) +27, Perform (sing) +27, Sense Motive +12, Tumble +26, Divine Might, Dodge, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (katana), Extra Music, Extra Turning, Improved Initiative, Mobility, Quick-Draw, Snowflake Wardance, Spring Attack, Weapon Focus (katana).

Equipment: Lianne's winged circlet, Lianne's katana, belt of Constitution +6, gloves of Dexterity +6, cloak of resistance +5, ring of deflection +4, amulet of natural armour +4, +5 mithral chain shirt of speed, +5 large animated shield, +2 mighty [Str 14] composite longbow, pale green ioun stone.

Bard Spells Known (2, save DC = 21 + spell level)
0--know direction, light, mage hand, message, prestidigitation.
1st--remove fear, silent image.

Paladin Spells Prepared (1, save DC = 11 + spell level)
1st--bless weapon.

Lianne's winged circlet is a circlet of Charisma +6 that also acts as a circlet of persuasion and a major circlet of blasting, allows the wearer to fly as if using winged boots, and gives a +3 bonus to attack and damage rolls.

Lianne's katana is a +3 holy focus collision adamantine katana.

Powerup Results (inspire courage, Snowflake Wardance, Divine Might, haste): AC 51 (touch 32, flat-footed 34); Atk +45/+45/+40/+35/+30 melee (1d10+25 plus 1 Con plus 2d6 holy/19-20, katana); SV Fort +31, Ref +35, Will +27 (+28 vs. charm).



The equipment leaves some 15k gp to be spent on any essential stuff I might have forgotten. The circlet is less then optimal (+6 to Cha as a secondary power is 18k down the drain!) but I wanted a character with a neat signature item that's not a weapon.

According to Hong's idea, +3 luck to attack and damage is priced as (bonus squared) x 5000 gp. What would you say the limit is on the bonus, Hong? Divine favour now only goes up to +3. Would it be the same for items?



Some random thoughts and questions:

On an iaijutsu strike, (which she is likely to get, with an Init +21) Lianne deals an additional 7d6+77 damage... if she rolls a 1 on her iaijutsu focus check. +8d6+88 on a 2, +9d6+99 on a 7.

She's probably using her one smite evil to make sure an important iaijutsu strike hits, since the attack bonus is great and the damage not so great, due to high Cha and low paladin level.

The arcane duelist's Cha bonus to AC should probably be limited to levels in the class, like the duelist's or the bladesinger's Int bonus. The two levels are probably not worth taking then, just for the +2 to AC, but technically, Your Honour, the ability description says nothing about limiting it, so...

How exactly is Divine Shield supposed to work? "... granting it [your shield] a bonus equal to your Charisma modifier. This bonus applies to the shield's bonus to Armor Class...". Is this an enhancement bonus? Does it stack with the shield's enhancement bonus? Improve it? Is it limited to +5? If it's just an unnamed bonus, she might be better off with Divine Shield instead of Divine Might, especially if it's ruled that arcane duelist levels don't give her the entire Cha bonus to AC.

Can you even use Snowflake Wardance with an animated shield? "A character with an animated shield still takes any penalties associated with shield use, such as armor check penalty, arcane spell failure chance, and nonproficiency." I guess one could argue either way, depending on the exact phrasing of the feat, but an animated shield should probably disable SW. If so, she has a scabbard of defense +5, a weaker AC by 1 and an additional 12000 gp to spend. Would you allow Divine Shield to work with it?



... ah, damn. I just noticed that Divine Might requires Power Attack, which Lianne doesn't have! She could get PA at 15th, Divine Might at 18th and drop Extra Turning...

It's probably simpler/cleaner/fairer to go with the first build, without arcane duelist levels. Lower AC, but you could easily bump it up at least partially with a slightly different item selection. Just changing the divine favour item from +3 to +2 gives you back 25000 gp... It still won't be 50, but it won't be bad either. The two levels freed up by dumping arcane duelist should be Pal levels, I think: another smite evil, and a benevolent DM might allow the player to swap out the warhorse for something else, like a divine feat (I would).

BTW, the first post has a mistake too: she can't take Combat Expertise as her Iai4 bonus feat, since she's not smart enough. Make it Dodge or Skill Focus (iaijutsu focus).

 

[hong]

Holy crap! Where were you when they were compiling the Sultans of Smack thread? You could have had some fun with that.

1) Nice to see that someone is getting some use out of that arcane duelist PrC. 99% of people thought it was useless, but this just proves there's no such thing as a completely lost cause.

2) With that sort of Cha, you definitely don't need Extra Turning. Dump this for Power Attack.

3) AC should be 10 + 9 (chain shirt) + 6 (Dex) + 4 (deflection) + 4 (nat armour) + 7 (shield) + 11 (Cha) = 51, I think. The animated shield is iffy, though. Even if Snowflake Wardance worked with it (which IMO it doesn't), what self-respecting samurai uses a shield, even one that floats in front of him? The scabbard seems more in keeping with the schtick, if you want a shield-like item. I wouldn't let Div Shield work with it, though.

4) Even with the AC bonus limited to no. of levels in arcane duelist, AC of ~40 is still pretty good. Is 10 levels of iaijutsu master really necessary? I can't remember what the top-level ability is.

5) You might want the dusty rose ioun stone for an additional +1 AC.

6) Is it supposed to be a wounding katana? What's "collision"?

7) Where does the extra +1 save vs Charm spells come from?

8) I really like the winged circlet. Oh yes.

9) +3 max luck bonus seems fair.

10) For a character in actual play, you probably want something to protect against crits/sneak attacks. A few of those can ruin anyone's day. Ditto freedom of movement, to protect against grappling. A teleport/dim door item would also be good, especially if you don't have buddies who can do it for you.

 

[jasin]

Holy crap! Where were you when they were compiling the Sultans of Smack thread? You could have had some fun with that.

Heh. Thanks.

1) Nice to see that someone is getting some use out of that arcane duelist PrC. 99% of people thought it was useless, but this just proves there's no such thing as a completely lost cause.

Well, +11 to AC is plenty of use, but it is rather cheezy, and I wouldn't allow it as a DM. If it were a medium BAB class, though, four levels might be worth it, for +4 AC...

2) With that sort of Cha, you definitely don't need Extra Turning. Dump this for Power Attack.

But that's another 4 rounds of Divine Might! A whole fight, almost! But yes, it needs to go, since Divine Might needs Power Attack, and she doesn't have it; I missed the requirement.

3) AC should be 10 + 9 (chain shirt) + 6 (Dex) + 4 (deflection) + 4 (nat armour) + 7 (shield) + 11 (Cha) = 51, I think.

I think the +5 shield was too expensive, or something; she has a +4 animated shield in the notes on my computer. I changed her AC, but forgot to change the equipment.

The animated shield is iffy, though. Even if Snowflake Wardance worked with it (which IMO it doesn't), what self-respecting samurai uses a shield, even one that floats in front of him?

She's eclectic.

Honestly, I don't really like the idea of animated shields in general, even for non-samurai. But they're such a cheap way to get AC, if you're a two-handed-weapon-wielder.

The scabbard seems more in keeping with the schtick, if you want a shield-like item. I wouldn't let Div Shield work with it, though.

Neither would I, probably. Unlike an animated shield, monks, martial artists and Snowflake wardancers can use it... so I think it's fair that unlike an animated shield, it's not actually a shield and can't be used for the stuff that needs a shield. It's just a thingy that gives a shield bonus.

4) Even with the AC bonus limited to no. of levels in arcane duelist, AC of ~40 is still pretty good. Is 10 levels of iaijutsu master really necessary? I can't remember what the top-level ability is.

8th is One strike, two cuts. That's pretty nice.

9th is a bonus feat.

10th is Strike with no thought: you automatically get a surprise round even when your enemy is aware of you, and all you can do is attack with your katana. Not really all that great in a typical dungeon crawl/arena combat, but it's a reasonable fit for Lianne; with diplomacy +44, she could reasonably start most fights with a talk. And if the enemy really wants a fight, she's first, with an iai-strike. And than likely another, with Init +21.

What would you suggest instead of iaijutsu master levels? Arcane duelist? The problem is it has weak BAB, which is supposed to be offset by the enhance chosen weapon ability, but at these levels, you're starting to hit the +10 limit.

... actually, I just noticed that the dextrous attack ability, on the very next Acd level, is pretty abusable in 3.5. You can take a penalty on damage, and add the same number to attacks, with a limit = max. weapon damage - 1, so a you could take up to a -10 penalty on damage with a +3 longsword, and add +10 to attack.

Now, two-handed Power Attack back for the whole value gained by dextrous attack! With a +3 katana, you can use dextrous attack for +12 attack, -12 to damage; then use Power Attack for -12 attack, +24 damage: net +12 damage out of nowhere!

Or just use dextrous attack to make sure you hit with an iaijutsu strike. What's -10 to damage for +10 to attack, on an attack that deals >100?

The two-handed Power Attack doesn't work with Snowflake Wardance so it doesn't synergize all that well with Lianne's style... but other munchy builds using the arcane duelist come to mind. An appropriate mix of martial artist, bard, fighter, battle sorcerer might be turn out truly deadly.

I think I might be posting another character one these days...

5) You might want the dusty rose ioun stone for an additional +1 AC.

I was running out of money, and she had AC 50 anyway, so I decided to call it a day. But if she doesn't get the full Cha bonus to AC, definitely, that'd be one of the first additions. It's something cheap, right?

6) Is it supposed to be a wounding katana? What's "collision"?

Yes, it's wounding. Because wounding seems to be a good enhancement for people who hit often, but don't do much damage. Only, between Divine Might and Power Attack (which she needs for DM) she does respectable damage, but the idea stuck.

BTW, I calculated it as wounding for her equipment values, just forgot to note it.

Collision is from XPsiHB: a +2 equivalent ability that gives +5 to damage. Again, for people who hit often, but don't do much damage. Since she needs Power Attack anyway, she's better of with another +2 worth of straight enhancement bonus.

BTW, if her katana a +5 etc. weapon instead of +3 collision etc. weapon, in her hands it's a +6 weapon! The arcane duelist's enhancement ability allows you to exceed the +5 limit! (But not the +10 total limit.)

7) Where does the extra +1 save vs Charm spells come from?

Inspire courage. +1 vs. charm and fear, right? I didn't not fear since she's immune anyway.

8) I really like the winged circlet. Oh yes.

I usually have trouble with thinking up cool signature items that are not weapons, but this seemed really natural.

9) +3 max luck bonus seems fair.

I think so.

10) For a character in actual play, you probably want something to protect against crits/sneak attacks. A few of those can ruin anyone's day.

Right. With a 50-ish AC from the cheezy duelist dip, she can probably afford to lose some of it for some fortification. Without it, it's tougher, but it's still probably worth it for at least light fort.

Ditto freedom of movement, to protect against grappling.

Ah, right! She'd really need that, I think, being a melee girl, with Str 14 and no escape artist.

A teleport/dim door item would also be good, especially if you don't have buddies who can do it for you.

And it can also stand in for a freedom of movement item... a couple of times.

 

[hong]

The reverse-Power Attack thing is from a pre-3.5E class, so it's not surprising there's a loophole there. The most obvious nerf is to disallow using dextrous attack and PA at the same time. Even so, there's a lot of uses for it, in tripping, disarming and so on. Luckily, I banned these IMC so I don't have to worry so much.

You can't generally get two iaijutsu strikes on the one guy in the one combat, even with Strike With No Thought. The requirement for an iai strike is that the opponent is flat-footed, and you draw your weapon in the same round. After the first strike, your weapon is already drawn. You could house rule Quick Draw to allow quick-sheathing as well (I have), but then you should also allow for the possibility of multiple iai strikes. Regardless, a ring of invisibility would be a good way of getting around this....

 

[jasin]

The reverse-Power Attack thing is from a pre-3.5E class, so it's not surprising there's a loophole there. The most obvious nerf is to disallow using dextrous attack and PA at the same time.

Or just require that all the arcane duelist specials be used with arcane duelist weapons, which would be the ones for which proficiency is required by the class.

But where's the fun in that?

Even so, there's a lot of uses for it, in tripping, disarming and so on. Luckily, I banned these IMC so I don't have to worry so much.

Tripping, I'm not so sure. I don't see people missing touch attacks much. Disarming, sure, but that's getting close to a one trick pony, something I dislike in many of the munchy builds you usually see on the forums. I like my twinked out characters to be all-around useful.

You can't generally get two iaijutsu strikes on the one guy in the one combat, even with Strike With No Thought. The requirement for an iai strike is that the opponent is flat-footed, and you draw your weapon in the same round. After the first strike, your weapon is already drawn. You could house rule Quick Draw to allow quick-sheathing as well (I have), but then you should also allow for the possibility of multiple iai strikes.

No need for that, I think.

You get surprise with Strike with no thought. You get two attacks (because of One strike, two cuts), the first of which is an iaijutsu strike. You win initiative (with your handy Init modifier of +21), sheathe your weapon as a move action, and get another two strikes, the first of which is an iaijutsu strike.

Regardless, a ring of invisibility would be a good way of getting around this....

Actually, when I played the iaijutsu master, we came to the conclusion that you're not technically flat-footed vs. invisible opponents, you're just denied your Dex modifier. Which means you cannot be iaijutsu'd by an invisible iaijustu master you know is there.

Even if that's not correct by a strict reading of the rules, I think it's not unfair to limit iaijutsu to enemies that haven't acted yet. Once they have, they're in the clear, even if you become invisible or feint them or something like that.

OTOH, we also ruled that an iaijutsu guy who wins initiative can ready to make an iaijutsu strike for whenever the opponent comes within reach.