D&D 5E (2024) Life drain needs to be replaced with Exhaustion

[Matrix Sorcica]

I've seen and since used hit dice drain. Target must spend 1 or 2 hit dice. If unable, immidiately reduced to zero hit points. Really, really put the fear into the hearts of my players

I like the idea of coupling this with the old drain in HP maximum. Make the loss of HP maximum and HD permanent (a la level drain) but you don't lose XP or any other class features.

The HD (and HP maximum) can be recovered via a greater restoration spell, etc.

Here's an example (credit to Conflux creatures):

Erode Life. The wight drains the vitality from a creature it hit with a melee attack this turn, forcing it to make a DC 13 Constitution saving throw.
On a failure, the target loses 2 unexpended hit dice, or drops to 0 hit points if it can't.

 

[Distracted DM]

I'll say that reducing max hp without a save seems like it should be scary- the lvl6 melee warlock in one of my recent sessions was down to 11 max hp ... but for some reason, it's not like.. "oh sht I've been level-drained down to 2nd level from 6th" scary. The character isn't losing capability, they're basically just losing HP. The hit dice drain seems to be similar. The max hp drain makes fights scarier because the character can go down or be killed much easier, but hit dice drain is only affecting their ability to heal between fights. Yes, if they're out then they drop to 0... I don't know if that's more threatening.

 

[Matrix Sorcica]

I'll say that reducing max hp without a save seems like it should be scary- the lvl6 melee warlock in one of my recent sessions was down to 11 max hp ... but for some reason, it's not like.. "oh sht I've been level-drained down to 2nd level from 6th" scary. The character isn't losing capability, they're basically just losing HP. The hit dice drain seems to be similar. The max hp drain makes fights scarier because the character can go down or be killed much easier, but hit dice drain is only affecting their ability to heal between fights. Yes, if they're out then they drop to 0... I don't know if that's more threatening.

Semi-High level characters will seldom feel the max hp drain before the battle is over and the drain can be handled. They feel the HD drain much sooner, especially if they don't start at full HD. Two sessions ago the 13th lvl party met some Sword Wraiths doing this kind of HD drain. Only a very succesful Turn Undead stopped a TPK (so use with caution). The look on my players' faces!

 

[Mulciber]

Undead should

In the Wight thread I propose this.
life drain should be replaced with exhaustion.
wight Constitution Saving Throw: DC 13, one creature within 5 feet. Failure: 6 (1d8 + 2) Necrotic damage, and gain a level of exhaustion

vampire Bite (Bat or Vampire Form Only). Constitution Saving Throw: DC 17, one creature within 5 feet that is willing or that has the Grappled, Incapacitated, or Restrained condition. Failure: 6 (1d4 + 4) Piercing damage plus 13 (3d8) Necrotic damage. and gain 2 levels of exhaustion. .

So what monsters should exhaustion damage, and we are using the 2024 exhaustion.

Undead should make the pc's pause, have a slight glimpse of fear, fatigue is barely a threat imho.

What problems/issue are you trying to fix with your proposed change?

 

[jasper]

Undead should

Undead should make the pc's pause, have a slight glimpse of fear, fatigue is barely a threat imho.

What problems/issue are you trying to fix with your proposed change?

A -2 to everything is going to get a pc worried, and they don't have to refigure their stat math unlike a str drain. With a vampire a -4 on all rolls until a long rest is worse.
So easier math condition. And exhaustion is scary. But I am okay with going with level drain and having 24 hours to cast greater restoration or it be permanent.

 

[Mon]

I've seen and since used hit dice drain. Target must spend 1 or 2 hit dice. If unable, immidiately reduced to zero hit points. Really, really put the fear into the hearts of my players

Me too. This works great and is kinda like level drain lite, hitting a sweet spot where it is terrifying without taking away your hard earned XP and resulting “fun drain”.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I suggested using the exhaustion mechanism to replace undead life/level draining back in 3.5. To counter its intrinsically increased lethality, it didn’t trigger with every hit an undead creature made.

Conceptually, it fit the description of the ability quite well, and was easy to understand & manage, and both quick & scary when tested. I hadn’t worked out all the kinks, though.

Spoiler: Energy Drain as Fatigue

To use 3Ed terminology, it worked by making a PC Fatigued => Exhausted => Staggered => Unconscious.

To clarify- this shouldn't happen on 4 consecutive hits. That would be too much, too fast. It needs to be conditional.

1) Perhaps it takes a crit to bestow the condition- and more powerful Energy Draining undead have better odds of scoring a crit.

2) it could be a hit that triggers an immediate saving throw.

3) it could be something that requires the undead to expend a resource of its own: burning an action point; one of its "4/day" or "4/Encounter" Drains; etc.

4) perhaps- for certain undead- it could be contiditonal, so that they could Drain only on unholy ground, under a full moon, etc.

5) for truly anathematic creatures whose very existence is an affront to life (major undead, powerful aberrations, certain extraplanar beings), they might even Drain in a continuous aura, and the longer you stay in the aura's radius, the more you are drained (IOW, you must save each round, and if you fail, your condition worsens). Such an aura may even do some HP damage in addition. For such creatures, I would say that either you only need save once, regardless of the number of overlapping auras you encounter, or this kind of aura is limited to unique beings, just for mechanical reasons.

6) it could be a specialized die-roll mechanic: for each event for which an undead could Drain a foe- either by attack or by aura- the DM would roll a special die (let's say it's a d10). Weaker draining undead only actually Drain on a 10, but more powerful ones might drain on a 9, 8, 7, or even a 6.

Overall, this system has 4 main advantages I can see: it would use existing game mechanics without really creating much in the way of new substystems, just a new way to use them; the mechanics match the fluff; the danger is real (for any class); the bookkeeping is minimal.

I never implemented it for 2 BIG reasons though:

1) I hadn’t worked out precisely how to handle spells that operated like undead critters’ attacks, and

2) 4Ed was announced a few months later, so continued refinement seemed pointless

 

[rmcoen]

Most of my games, the encounters are once/day while traveling, maybe 2 or 3 at a given location, and rarely a true dungeon crawl with a half-dozen encounters. Last fight, where a life drain event happened, was two days of investigation in town, followed by a 5-hour hike, and then a 34-round assault on a cultist base at a farm. It could have been 3 to 5 encounters, but the PCs didn't want to waste rounds of some big spells (greater invisibility), so they rushed them all together. The life drain happened in the middle, 1 fight before the end of the "quest". The bard-9 with 66hp took a 56hp critical hit from a wraith; he had 10hp for the boss fight (a barbed devil and a flesh golem, which usually hit for 17 dmg). He chose to hang back. The rogue-6/druid-3 took a 21-pt life drain, and decided to push ahead anyway; she had to drink two potions to stay alive.

After that, though... 5-hour hike back to town (probably 8 hours, with their prisoners), and then a long rest. Probably 3 days before they arrive in their base town and take on another quest. So... life drain ends up being a mere 10-round irritation to the rogue, but 10-round pain for the bard, and then irrelevant?

In the 1e or 2e rules, the Bard would now be "Bard 5", losing lots of spells and spell levels as well as hp. In 3e, he'd be "Bard-9 with 4 negative levels" (-4 to everything, and -4 HD of current hp, or about 14hp). In 3.5e, he'd be down 4 CON, messing around with his concentration and CON saves, as well as down 18hp. In 4e... I don't know, it never happened that I recall. 1e, 2e, and 3.5e were all scary; 5e was scary only because his max hp were lowered to "below 1 hit" for the next fight, and couldn't be healed.

In the 1e or 2e rules, the Rogue/Druid would now be "Rogue-6 / druid-1", losing spell levels and wildshape along with hp. In 3e, just -2 to everything and -9hp. 3.5e, 2 CON, so 9 hp. 5e... the rogue didn't really care! "I almost never get hit anyway, and I'll just run away if i do." Life drain meant almost nothing to the rogue... it was just more damage.

NOTE: in my campaign, I use something akin to what was said on page 1. if you are at 51%-75% = Bruised (no effects, but visible). 26%-50% = Bloodied (-1 to attacks, skills, and spell DCs). 11% to 25% = Battered (-2). 1%-10% = Crippled (-3). Exhaustion is separate, and is OneDD playtest version: 10 levels, each level is "-1 to attacks, skills, and spell DCs", with every 2 levels adding "-5' movement". So the Bard is now stuck at "10 of 66", or Battered... -2 to all actions and spell DCs! The Rogue is stuck just above Bloodied... taking just 8 damage drops her to Bloodied, and -1 to all actions.

But.... tomorrow morning both are okay? I don't like it.

I should also note that I use a hybrid of Gim&gritty... long rest is still once/day, but you generally only recover half your hp (roll your MAX HD, and heal that much) and expended spell slots (although other 1/day powers recharge normally). Likewise, instead of "remove 1 level of exhaustion on long rest automatic", if you aren't in a safe place it's a CON save to get rid of it. (On the other hand, a safe and secure location like an inn back in town gives 1 automatic level of exhaustion removed, and a chance at a second!)

So I want life drain to take awhile, but can't figure out a good method/system. Should it be levels of exhaustion (something I already have a system for) - and how much should the wraith hit be? Should it be loss of HD (which would slow healing for days), recovering the lost HD slowly? and again, how many from the wraith hit? Leave it at the (somewhat) ignorable "MAX HP reduction"... and how long to recover that?

 

[CleverNickName]

I like the idea of Exhaustion being used instead of Life Drain, but like others have suggested, it would be very deadly very quickly. Especially in the kinds of games that I run.

If I ever go that route, I would need to expand the Exhaustion Table out to 10 levels instead of 6, sort of spread all of those bad things out a bit more so that they don't pile up so quickly. Maybe add a few other things in there to pad out and "dilute" the list as well.

Something like this, maybe? Just spitballing here...

Exhaustion Level​	Effect
1​	Disadvantage on ability checks
2​	Speed reduced by 10
3​	Disadvantage on attack rolls
4​	Speed reduced by 10
5​	Disadvantage on save throws
6​	Cannot take Reactions
7​	Hit point maximum halved
8​	?
9​	Speed reduced to 0
10​	Death (or maybe Unconscious instead?)

But overall? I really like this idea.

 

[TorgoTheWhite]

I will often just put a flat exhaustion cap on (non-lethal) exhaustion.. so I have a Sword that caps at 3 levels of exhaustion max. Exhaustion caps are an easy way to differentiate the "lethalness" of the imposing situation