D&D (2024) Life drain needs to be replaced with Exhaustion

[Matrix Sorcica]

I've seen and since used hit dice drain. Target must spend 1 or 2 hit dice. If unable, immidiately reduced to zero hit points. Really, really put the fear into the hearts of my players

I like the idea of coupling this with the old drain in HP maximum. Make the loss of HP maximum and HD permanent (a la level drain) but you don't lose XP or any other class features.

The HD (and HP maximum) can be recovered via a greater restoration spell, etc.

Here's an example (credit to Conflux creatures):

Erode Life. The wight drains the vitality from a creature it hit with a melee attack this turn, forcing it to make a DC 13 Constitution saving throw.
On a failure, the target loses 2 unexpended hit dice, or drops to 0 hit points if it can't.

 

[Distracted DM]

I'll say that reducing max hp without a save seems like it should be scary- the lvl6 melee warlock in one of my recent sessions was down to 11 max hp ... but for some reason, it's not like.. "oh sht I've been level-drained down to 2nd level from 6th" scary. The character isn't losing capability, they're basically just losing HP. The hit dice drain seems to be similar. The max hp drain makes fights scarier because the character can go down or be killed much easier, but hit dice drain is only affecting their ability to heal between fights. Yes, if they're out then they drop to 0... I don't know if that's more threatening.

 

[Matrix Sorcica]

I'll say that reducing max hp without a save seems like it should be scary- the lvl6 melee warlock in one of my recent sessions was down to 11 max hp ... but for some reason, it's not like.. "oh sht I've been level-drained down to 2nd level from 6th" scary. The character isn't losing capability, they're basically just losing HP. The hit dice drain seems to be similar. The max hp drain makes fights scarier because the character can go down or be killed much easier, but hit dice drain is only affecting their ability to heal between fights. Yes, if they're out then they drop to 0... I don't know if that's more threatening.

Semi-High level characters will seldom feel the max hp drain before the battle is over and the drain can be handled. They feel the HD drain much sooner, especially if they don't start at full HD. Two sessions ago the 13th lvl party met some Sword Wraiths doing this kind of HD drain. Only a very succesful Turn Undead stopped a TPK (so use with caution). The look on my players' faces!

 

[hoffrg86]

Undead should

In the Wight thread I propose this.
life drain should be replaced with exhaustion.
wight Constitution Saving Throw: DC 13, one creature within 5 feet. Failure: 6 (1d8 + 2) Necrotic damage, and gain a level of exhaustion

vampire Bite (Bat or Vampire Form Only). Constitution Saving Throw: DC 17, one creature within 5 feet that is willing or that has the Grappled, Incapacitated, or Restrained condition. Failure: 6 (1d4 + 4) Piercing damage plus 13 (3d8) Necrotic damage. and gain 2 levels of exhaustion. .

So what monsters should exhaustion damage, and we are using the 2024 exhaustion.

Undead should make the pc's pause, have a slight glimpse of fear, fatigue is barely a threat imho.

What problems/issue are you trying to fix with your proposed change?

 

[jasper]

Undead should

Undead should make the pc's pause, have a slight glimpse of fear, fatigue is barely a threat imho.

What problems/issue are you trying to fix with your proposed change?

A -2 to everything is going to get a pc worried, and they don't have to refigure their stat math unlike a str drain. With a vampire a -4 on all rolls until a long rest is worse.
So easier math condition. And exhaustion is scary. But I am okay with going with level drain and having 24 hours to cast greater restoration or it be permanent.

 

[Mon]

I've seen and since used hit dice drain. Target must spend 1 or 2 hit dice. If unable, immidiately reduced to zero hit points. Really, really put the fear into the hearts of my players

Me too. This works great and is kinda like level drain lite, hitting a sweet spot where it is terrifying without taking away your hard earned XP and resulting “fun drain”.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I suggested using the exhaustion mechanism to replace undead life/level draining back in 3.5. To counter its intrinsically increased lethality, it didn’t trigger with every hit an undead creature made.

Conceptually, it fit the description of the ability quite well, and was easy to understand & manage, and both quick & scary when tested. I hadn’t worked out all the kinks, though.

Spoiler: Energy Drain as Fatigue

To use 3Ed terminology, it worked by making a PC Fatigued => Exhausted => Staggered => Unconscious.

To clarify- this shouldn't happen on 4 consecutive hits. That would be too much, too fast. It needs to be conditional.

1) Perhaps it takes a crit to bestow the condition- and more powerful Energy Draining undead have better odds of scoring a crit.

2) it could be a hit that triggers an immediate saving throw.

3) it could be something that requires the undead to expend a resource of its own: burning an action point; one of its "4/day" or "4/Encounter" Drains; etc.

4) perhaps- for certain undead- it could be contiditonal, so that they could Drain only on unholy ground, under a full moon, etc.

5) for truly anathematic creatures whose very existence is an affront to life (major undead, powerful aberrations, certain extraplanar beings), they might even Drain in a continuous aura, and the longer you stay in the aura's radius, the more you are drained (IOW, you must save each round, and if you fail, your condition worsens). Such an aura may even do some HP damage in addition. For such creatures, I would say that either you only need save once, regardless of the number of overlapping auras you encounter, or this kind of aura is limited to unique beings, just for mechanical reasons.

6) it could be a specialized die-roll mechanic: for each event for which an undead could Drain a foe- either by attack or by aura- the DM would roll a special die (let's say it's a d10). Weaker draining undead only actually Drain on a 10, but more powerful ones might drain on a 9, 8, 7, or even a 6.

Overall, this system has 4 main advantages I can see: it would use existing game mechanics without really creating much in the way of new substystems, just a new way to use them; the mechanics match the fluff; the danger is real (for any class); the bookkeeping is minimal.

I never implemented it for 2 BIG reasons though:

1) I hadn’t worked out precisely how to handle spells that operated like undead critters’ attacks, and

2) 4Ed was announced a few months later, so continued refinement seemed pointless