Life's Blood and Condition

[Water Bob]

We've got all these character conditions in the game. If you have at least 1 hit point, you're fully functional. If you're at 0 hit points, you're barely functional (disabled). If you're at -1 HP or below, you're not functional at all, unconscious, dying.

What happened to functional but hindered?

What about having your Speed reduced, or a -2 attack and defense because your hand just got crushed in that last block? Maybe your right eye is swollen closed.

It seems to me that it would easy to add a link in the hit point chain where these types of injuries could be imposed on a character. No more going from fully healed and functional at 1+ hit points to unconscious and dying after one more blow.

I'm thinking that when a character is reduced to 4 hit points or less, the GM should look at imposing a hindering penalty. Why did I pick "4" HP? I looked at a 1st level Commoner. He's got absolutely no combat training and uses a d4 for his hit die. Thus, if a character is reduced to 1-4 HP, the GM should impose a non-critical (not bleeding to death) hindrance that makes sense when considered with the blow that delivered it.

Therefore, the hit point chain will look like this:

5 or more HP? Fully functional.

1-4 HP? Functional but hindered or wounded.

0 HP? Barely functional. Disabled.

-1 or less HP? Unconscious and dying.



The GM could take this a step farther and create some type of more serious wound for critical hits that reduce the character to 4- hit points and Massive Damage failures.

Also, look at the "conditions" section of the rules. Blinded, Dazed, Dazzled, Deafened, Fatigued, Exhausted, Frightened, Nauseated, Panicked, Shaken, Sickened, Staggered, and Stunned are all hindrances that could result from the blow that reduced the character to 4 HP or less.

And, I think that a check might be in order to allow the character an out--something that allows him to avoid the hindrance/obstacle/challenge.





What we're saying, in effect, is that a character's "life's blood" is the 5 points of the 0-5 HP range. The rest is a measure of how well he can defense himself. A blow that takes the charactger to 4 HP or less is one that hit into the quick--that is, one that injured the character with a moderate type wound. It's not serious enough to stop the fight but it is bad enough to make the character use a penalty modifier.





Here's an example of what I'm talking about:

Caelis attacks Thrallan. Both are using a battleaxe. Caelis hits, defeating Thrallan's parry, and does 9 points of damage.

Thrallan is reduced from 11 hit points to 2 HP.

Well, this falls into the area we're discussing above. Given that Caelis was attacking and Thrallan attempting to parry, let's say that Caelis' axe shaft slammed into Thrallan's grip on his own axe, bruising or breaking his fingers and knuckles. Thrallan could drop his weapon--that blow probably smarts!

We'll give Thrallan a quick DEX check to attempt to avoid this fate of dropping his weapon. He rolls DEX vs. 9. The "9" we got from the damage. Oops, Thrallan failed the check, so he does, indeed, drop his weapon.

Next, let's get a read on how bad his fingers are hurt. CON vs. DC 9. Pass it, and he'll heal normally. Fail it, and the GM should maybe break his fingers or give him a strong bruise that takes longer than normal to heal. All the while, he'll have a -2 DM whenever he does something with that hand.



Thoughts?

 

[Michael Silverbane]

I think that 1-4 hp is much too small a range to be of any real use (unless you are using some drastically reduced hit point totals for the characters). One-half hit points (bloodied in D&D 4e) is probably a better cut-off point to use.

Also, there was some very interesting streamlining of conditions and penalties done in the Star Wars Saga Edition RPG that you might want to look into, as well...

Essentially, all negative conditions (sickened, shaken, dazzled, etc.) were consolidated into the "condition track".

If you were affected by something that (in other games) would give you one of these conditions, you were instead pushed down the condition track. If you got pushed to the bottom of the condition track (there were five steps on the condition track, each with a greater penalty than the past) then you were knocked unconscious.

Similarly, if you underwent some treatment that would (in other games) remove one of these conditions, it instead pushed you back up the condition track.

 

[Water Bob]

I think that 1-4 hp is much too small a range to be of any real use (unless you are using some drastically reduced hit point totals for the characters). One-half hit points (bloodied in D&D 4e) is probably a better cut-off point to use.

Hmm... I like the 1-4 range because it fits 1st and low level characters well. Second, we really don't want to inflict negative conditions that often, which is why I think the bottom 5 points (including 0 HP) is a good fit for higher level characters with more hit points.

Third, it makes sense that if you're almost out of hitpoints that maybe you're starting to take some more serious wounds than what you did when you lost the earlier hit points.

Also, there was some very interesting streamlining of conditions and penalties done in the Star Wars Saga Edition RPG that you might want to look into, as well...

I'll take a look. Thanks.

 

[steenan]

To make such modifications in any sensible way, you have to define clearly what HPs mean for you. A lot of confusion comes from games not doing it (or doing it and then contradicting it by their own rules). Once you know what you're modeling, it should be much clearer where to attach the penalties.

There is also a matter of game usefulness. Penalties below 5 HP may as well not exist - even at low levels damage is high teens is nothing extraordinary, so you will usually jump from "no penalties" to "dying" directly.

An approach I like in this matter is how Warhammer handles it. As long as you are at positive HPs, you're all right - no hit really wounded you. When you go to zero and below, every hit is rolled on a critical table, giving various injuries (and possibly death). Depending on luck, you may go down with the first attack that hits you (drops HPs below zero) or fight on and win, but with many wounds.

 

[Water Bob]

To make such modifications in any sensible way, you have to define clearly what HPs mean for you.

Very true. We play the Conan game, a 3.5 variant, and hitpoints are well defined in this game.

There is also a matter of game usefulness. Penalties below 5 HP may as well not exist - even at low levels damage is high teens is nothing extraordinary, so you will usually jump from "no penalties" to "dying" directly.

I haven't found that to be true in this game. Sure, even at 1st level, damage in the teens is commonplace, but there are lots of opportunities for you to be knocked to to 2 or 3 or whatever hit points.

An approach I like in this matter is how Warhammer handles it. As long as you are at positive HPs, you're all right - no hit really wounded you. When you go to zero and below, every hit is rolled on a critical table, giving various injuries (and possibly death). Depending on luck, you may go down with the first attack that hits you (drops HPs below zero) or fight on and win, but with many wounds.

Wow, that's a fantastic idea.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

What about the 1st-level Elven Wizard with a max of 3HP?

I'll say that, as far as I can tell, D&D has never included rules like this (at least in core) because D&D has always avoided death spiral mechanics and other "If you're hosed, you're *really* hosed" rules (e.g., if being unable to fully defend yourself because you're casting a spell draws an AoO, why doesn't being paralyzed draw one?).

Also, how do you go from "take a penalty on some rolls" as you propose in the first couple paragraphs, to "a free, guaranteed-success disarm attempt plus a penalty on some rolls" that you get later on?

EDIT:

On SW Saga edition: The way it works is you have a value equal to your Fortitude defense (10 + Fort Save value in D&D); if you take damage in a single hit which is larger than that amount, you move 1 step down the condition track, which has penalties ranging from +0 (normal) to -10 (one step above unconscious). Certain characters - and weapons - have the ability to push your target down the CT multiple times, resulting in a breed of "one-hit-KO" character archetypes, because on this level, everyone's only got 5 Hit Points.

 

[Water Bob]

What about the 1st-level Elven Wizard with a max of 3HP?

"Life's Blood" is 0-4 HP. Any character with 5+ HP has learned something about defending himself and is able to take or avoid blows that would wound or kill less well trained people.

Anybody with 4 or less HP is not trained at all at defending themselves.

When your Eleven Wizard levels, and gets 5+ HP, he starts to learn some basic defensive moves.

I'll say that, as far as I can tell, D&D has never included rules like this...

If you've got 1+ HP, you're fully functional and not seriously wounded.

If you've got 0 HP, you're considered Disabled.

If you've got -1 or less HP, you're incapacitated and dying.

Looks like the death spiral mechanics to me....

Even 1st edition AD&D had notes on this in the DMG (when a character didn't collapse until -3 HP).

Also, how do you go from "take a penalty on some rolls" as you propose in the first couple paragraphs, to "a free, guaranteed-success disarm attempt plus a penalty on some rolls" that you get later on?

I don't follow. Example, please.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

"Life's Blood" is 0-4 HP. Any character with 5+ HP has learned something about defending himself and is able to take or avoid blows that would wound or kill less well trained people.

Anybody with 4 or less HP is not trained at all at defending themselves.

When your Eleven Wizard levels, and gets 5+ HP, he starts to learn some basic defensive moves.

Right - so how does this translate to the game rules? Do all 1st-level Wizards and Commoner 1s walk around with a -2 penalty to something?

Looks like the death spiral mechanics to me....

No, that's not a death spiral. Or, rather, not enough of one to matter.

"At 50% of max HP, take a -2 to all attack rolls, saves, and checks. At 25%, take a -5 penalty," is more of a death spiral mechanic.

Basically, rules which make it so that the more you're losing, the more you're likely to lose (and that come up before you're actually disabled and dying) are death spiral mechanics.

D&D doesn't tend to have rules like that; I don't think your initial rules are particularly death-spirally, either, but the later exposition on them seems to be moreso.

I don't follow. Example, please.

You posted that a character who has between 0 and 4 HP gets a penalty.

You then expanded that to, "The attack which causes a penalty may, in fact, have a host of other riders on it (such as a guaranteed success disarm)."

I was wondering where that came from. Is it part of the crit / massive damage rule?

 

[Water Bob]

Right - so how does this translate to the game rules? Do all 1st-level Wizards and Commoner 1s walk around with a -2 penalty to something?

I was scratching my head at where you got that at first, but then I realized why you'd say that.

No, if you haven't been damaged, you don't have a penalty. If your Elven Wizard with 3HP takes 1 HP of damage, though, reducing him to 2HP, then you slap a wound on him--with probably a -2 modifier or whatever seems appropriate.

You posted that a character who has between 0 and 4 HP gets a penalty.

You then expanded that to, "The attack which causes a penalty may, in fact, have a host of other riders on it (such as a guaranteed success disarm)."

I was wondering where that came from. Is it part of the crit / massive damage rule?

It's just common sense (GM judgement) based on what happens in the combat.

In that combat, the defender was reduced from 11 to 2 HP. So, what happened to him? He's under 4 HP, so he took a hindrance wound. He's not dying, so the wound wasn't life-serious.

It made sense that, since he was defending, that something happened during the parry--logic took me to his hand being crushed or badly bruised.




They signal for the GM to implement rules like this will be (1) on a successful Critical Hit, or (2) the character is reduced to 4 HP or less.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

I was scratching my head at where you got that at first, but then I realized why you'd say that.

No, if you haven't been damaged, you don't have a penalty. If your Elven Wizard with 3HP takes 1 HP of damage, though, reducing him to 2HP, then you slap a wound on him--with probably a -2 modifier or whatever seems appropriate.

Makes sense - though it does mean that weak characters who take damage are always going to take a wound, that might be less a bug and more a feature.

What happens if an attack takes you from, say, 9 HP right to -1? Do you take a wound then, too? Or do you proceed right to the Unconscious and Dying stage?

It's just common sense (GM judgement) based on what happens in the combat.

Are you envisioning a sort of table that lays this stuff out, that you roll against (like a Rolemaster chart), or is it supposed to be more freeform?

What limits do you have in mind for the ... mechanical power? ... of such wounds? E.g., how strong an effect can a wound have and how do you know when to apply it? Permanent blindness? Nausea for 1dX+Y rounds?

They signal for the GM to implement rules like this will be (1) on a successful Critical Hit, or (2) the character is reduced to 4 HP or less.

All critical hits?