LightPhoenix's Rogue Experience

[LightPhoenix]

Recently, my DM got a bunch of people for a 4E playtest, mostly combat-oriented. I played the KotS rogue, and I thought I'd offer my thoughts on the Rogue specifically and combat in general.

Before I get into my thoughts, I thought I'd give a little background on our group and my overall views of 4E. I'm definitely excited for the new edition, but I do have some things that I don't like that I'm reserving judgment on. I guess I'm not a hater, and I'm not a fanboy – just in the middle. Our group is small – only three players, so that changes the scaling a bit... but hey, that's the DM's problem. We all know each other, and I've gamed with the DM before. We have one new player, and two experienced ones.

I'll start with an endorsement of the power cards thread in the Fan Creations forum. They helped (me at least) to keep track of encounter powers nicely – a mistake I made in our first combat. In higher levels I think this will be invaluable, as the number of daily and encounter abilities increases.

The rogue. My biggest lesson is that Rogues need to move! I started off throwing daggers from a distance, and that hindered my efficacy a lot. The KotS Rogue is definitely designed to be in melee, and trying to use range didn't work well at all. I had a lot of luck with Sly Flourish for added damage (I believe this will be 1[W]+Dex+Cha damage) initially, but later on moved over to Deft Strike/Positioning Strike to set up sneak attacks and generally control movement. A big thing I kept forgetting is that diagonals counted as one square. That will take some getting used to. Rogues can do a LOT of damage, but they really need to be moving around and moving others around. While a sneaky Rogue could still be at range (after all, we haven't seen all of the powers) I'm thinking this won't be an optimal build in 4E.

Another big issue I had was keeping track of what defense was being attacked. Positioning Strike attacks Will, not AC. This seems like something Clerics, Wizards, and Warlocks will have to pay particular attention to more than the melee classes. Even so, being able to make an attack against Will was very handy. On a related note, I often found myself wanting to know what I was being attacked against, as my defenses were different.

For me, there was a natural tendency to hold back Action Points and daily powers. That's another thing that I will have to get used to, especially in regard to AP. On the other hand, I often found myself using my encounter abilities as soon as possible, to get an early advantage.

In the end, I found that while having different at-will powers was more engaging, it ultimately still felt repetitive using them every round. I think this is an effect of being low level, as there aren't as many encounter/daily/utility abilities to use. Additionally, looking at the magic items in the pre-release document, I think there will be a lot of options coming from that as well. I'm thinking that past the first couple of levels, repetitiveness in combat will lessen greatly.

My dice were hot. I was rolling 17+ consistently for attacks, but not for stealth and especially perception. I got a critical at a perfect moment, with a sneak attack, utterly destroying the creature we were fighting (I forget what... a choker maybe?).

Finally, why would a Rogue not take Backstabber? I know on average it's only +2 damage with Sneak Attack... but I think the other feats will have to be pretty attractive to keep Rogues from taking it.

 

[jeffhartsell]

Finally, why would a Rogue not take Backstabber? I know on average it's only +2 damage with Sneak Attack... but I think the other feats will have to be pretty attractive to keep Rogues from taking it.

I am *currently* planning on a trying a half-elf rogue/ranger so backstabber is not for me... instead I want the Warrior of the Wild feat. The Nature skill and Hunter's Quarry as an encounter power seems sexy to me as a Valenar scout. Then get TWF and play up the dual-class nature.

 

[mach1.9pants]

I'll start with an endorsement of the power cards thread in the Fan Creations forum. They helped (me at least) to keep track of encounter powers nicely – a mistake I made in our first combat. In higher levels I think this will be invaluable, as the number of daily and encounter abilities increases.

I completely agree with the power cards, I will be using those...love 'em already.

However even if I didn't have them I wouldn't be worried about the number of powers. When I used to play, rather than DM, I always played a wizard (initially always called Raistlin...blush) and never had problems keping track of 9/9/9/9/9/9/9/9/9 spells so the 20 odd powers, no probs, even when you have to keep a track of daily/encounter powers from magic items.

Still, I am really looking forward to some lovely artistic genius on ENW producing the full PHB set of powers

 

[Kzach]

Rogue being my favourite class I'm a bit worried as to what they've done with it in this edition. Any more light you can shed on what it's like in play?

 

[Stalker0]

I created a rogue for my group to try in a playtest a while back. It used the initial rogue class excerpt.

From that experience, and it looks like Kos backs this up, is that rogue's can HIT!!!

Using a dagger, rogue's get dex +4 to hit (3 for dagger, +1 for rogue weapon talent). Further, many rogue powers hit vs reflex or other defenses. The rogue hit far more often than the other members of the group. Heck a 20 dex rogue can get a +9 to hit, almost as good as the ranger power that forces him to give up damage.

 

[LightPhoenix]

From that experience, and it looks like Kos backs this up, is that rogue's can HIT!!!

Using a dagger, rogue's get dex +4 to hit (3 for dagger, +1 for rogue weapon talent). Further, many rogue powers hit vs reflex or other defenses. The rogue hit far more often than the other members of the group. Heck a 20 dex rogue can get a +9 to hit, almost as good as the ranger power that forces him to give up damage.

I mentioned my dice were hot, so I'm a bit skewed. However, I can say that I was easily doing more damage than the cleric and fighter, even taking that into account. Where I really got into trouble is the times that I actually was hit - the fighter could take a lot more punishment.

Rogue being my favourite class I'm a bit worried as to what they've done with it in this edition. Any more light you can shed on what it's like in play?

Well, like I said before, there are a couple caveats with my account. First, my party's size was all of three - a cleric, a fighter, and me as the rogue. Second, the KotS rogue is very much built for melee combat, not for stealth or range.

Like I said before, mobility was key. Rogues need to be moving around, if for no other reason than to be setting up sneak attacks. This is why I eventually started using Deft Strike all the time - the bonus move was invaluable. Because of this, I was drawing a lot of opportunity attacks. Luckily, Rogues are also good at avoiding them, so it worked out fine.

As an aside: terminology is key. Deft Strike gives bonus move, not a shift, something we didn't notice until after our first session. It provokes opportunity attacks. Tumble looks like it may alleviate that after first level.

Like Stalker0 said, Rogues are much better at attacking. I was surprised by how well I could hit - with a dagger, weapon talent, and Dex modifier I usually had a +8 to hit as a first level. The damage wasn't superb (1d4+1), although Sneak Attack works wonders to correct this. The biggest thing that I was contributing was enemy control. In a sense, the Rogue almost works as a secondary controller, rather than as a striker.

I am *currently* planning on a trying a half-elf rogue/ranger so backstabber is not for me... instead I want the Warrior of the Wild feat. The Nature skill and Hunter's Quarry as an encounter power seems sexy to me as a Valenar scout. Then get TWF and play up the dual-class nature.

I imagine the combination would work very well. I suspect that depending on how you want your character to act will determine which will be your main class. We don't know all of the details yet, but it looks like Rogue is the class to play for ultimate mobility, and I imagine Deft Strike would be a very nice addition for a Ranger. That said, I don't doubt Ranger will also be getting some movement/shifting abilities.

 

[Altamir]

I DMed LightPhoenix's game and I'll back up a few things he said and add a few bits from the DM's perspective. To give some background I've been DMing and gaming for over 10 years, which is shocking to actually write out. Didn't think it had been that long. I have just recently ended a 4 year long 3.5 campaign and am eagerly awaiting 4e as a chance to shake things up a little bit.

For the most part I really am enjoying the system. From the DM's perspective it seemed in many ways a lot easier, but also a hell of a lot harder. In my 3.5 campaign I was not only running a PC, but helping my wife run another PC, and helping her keep track of her own PC. Towards the end of the campaign her dual wielding character was getting slightly out of control. In 4e, the monsters were very easy to run, and not only that, but fun to run. Most of them had at least one cool ability, but never really out shined the Players' own abilities. Each players had their own moment in the spotlight with their dailies, and LightPhoenix's critical sneak attack against my cavern choker.

For the things I didn't like, I am still having a problem getting used to the marking system. I am currently using bits of play-dough to mark the miniatures for marked or bloodied, and using a chart off to the site for init/ongoing dmg/bonuses/penalties/conditions which seemed very useful. I love the idea of the marking system, and it does work to some degree, but is still something of a pain.

Back to the topic of the rogue, DM's beware! These little buggers are going to ruin your best laid plans! The KotS rogue was mobile and accurate. LightPhoenix's dice were hot, rolling 15+ most of the session, but it still really didn't matter. By the end of the session he was really getting used to the character and laying waste to the monsters. I however think this is an important ability for the rogue. In my old 3.5 game, my wife played a rogue, and it was not always the easiest thing in the world to position everything together for a sneak attack. Sometimes no matter how hard the rogue worked, the monsters or the other PCs would not be in the right position. That, to some degree is no longer an issue. The rogue in 4e just moves himself, or the monster to wherever the feel like and sets up their own flanking situations!

I'll also tag in here at the end that both of the other players, the brand new one to D&D and my wife who's been gaming for 4 years, both loved the cards LightPhoenix printed off. Both said they found them extremely useful! I am defiantly looking forward to our next session and seeing how the group fares against the next set of challenges!

 

[D'karr]

I ran Keep on the Shadowfell yesterday and the when the rogue hit he hit hard. But the player was rolling horribly for half the adventure, so we had some moments of hilarity as his dice continued to "hate him."

But when he hit, man it was glorious to see.